CC in FL hospital?

CC in FL hospital?

This is a discussion on CC in FL hospital? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; My wife and I are expecting the arrival of our second child any day now. My question is...Can I CC in the hospital? I cannot ...

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Thread: CC in FL hospital?

  1. #1
    Member Array lowgroove's Avatar
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    CC in FL hospital?

    My wife and I are expecting the arrival of our second child any day now. My question is...Can I CC in the hospital? I cannot find anything in FL statutes that restricts carry in hospitals. Did I inadvertantly overlook something?


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowgroove View Post
    My wife and I are expecting the arrival of our second child any day now. My question is...Can I CC in the hospital? I cannot find anything in FL statutes that restricts carry in hospitals. Did I inadvertantly overlook something?
    Low...,

    Great question. FL's statutes nowhere mention hospitals as off-limits to those with FL CWFL.

    On the other hand, the hospitals I go to (quite often) all have the no guns signs and quote FL Statute 394.458 which indicates it is a third degree felony to carry in a hospital or mental health facility which provides mental health services 'except as authorized by law.' By default, almost every hospital does at least some of that.

    So, what does that mean? Logically, since hospitals and mental health facilities are NOT mentioned in 790.06(12), and you presumably have a license that authorizes you to carry concealed, you should be good to go.

    OTOH, there are no test cases. Do you think your local LE is logical and works on common sense? How about the local State's Attorney? How does s/he feel about Concealed Carry?

    How do YOU feel about being a test case? Gutmacher in Florida Firearms 'urges caution.' I do too.

    So, there is your answer-who knows? One more example of poorly written, not-well-thought-out laws by our legislature.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

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  3. #3
    Senior Member Array MilitaryPower's Avatar
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    Florida Statute § 394.458:
    “(1) (a) Except as authorized by law or as specifically authorized by the person in charge of each hospital providing mental health services under this part, it is unlawful to introduce into or upon the grounds of such hospital, or to take or attempt to take or send therefrom, any of the following articles, which are hereby declared to be contraband for the purposes of this section:
    Any intoxicating beverage or beverage . . . .
    Any controlled substance as defined in chapter 893; or
    Any firearms or deadly weapon”.

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...-statutes.html

    However, there is even more conflict. According to 790.251, hospitals are not on the list of prohibited parking lots. Ah, the madness.
    http://www.flsenate.gov/STATUTES/ind...20251#0790.251
    Gun control can be blamed in part for allowing 9/11 to happen.
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    Another wrench in the works here in Gainesville. Shands/UF Hospital has buildings and offices in many places. Because Shands is closely affiliated with The University of Florida, all rules for 'no carry' on university property in FL apply...no worries about treating mentally ill rules...no weapons at any time (not even in the car).

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    New Member Array rollin thunder's Avatar
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    Most, if not all hospitals cover mental health, I would say you can not carry there. We had a conversation about this at the range I go to, the consensus was you shouldn't carry in a hospital. I wouldn't want to be the test case while I waited for my child to be born.
    RT

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array sass20485's Avatar
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    Short answer, NO carrying in any hospital in FL.

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array David in FL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sass20485 View Post
    Short answer, NO carrying in any hospital in FL.
    Here's Gutmacher's interpretation. You'll note, charges were dismissed in the single case that he handled.

    I'm awfully conservative......but I have no problem ccw in a hospital.


    CAN YOU CARRY AT A HOSPITAL?© 2006 by Jon H. Gutmacher
    Florida Statute § 394.458 states “except as authorized by law” it is a third degree felony (yeah – felony!) for any person to bring, carry, possess, or transport a “firearm or other dangerous weapon” upon the grounds of any “hospital (or mental health facility) providing mental health services”. Here’s the actual wording:


    (1) (a) Except as authorized by law or as specifically authorized by the person in charge of each hospital providing mental health services under this part, it is unlawful to introduce into or upon the grounds of such hospital, or to take or attempt to take or send therefrom, any of the following articles, which are hereby declared to be contraband for the purposes of this section:

    Any intoxicating beverage or beverage . . . .
    Any controlled substance as defined in chapter 893; or
    Any firearms or deadly weapon”.

    I just handled an arrest involving this statute. I raised the defense that the phrase “except as authorized by law” meant just that – and that securely encased weapons in vehicles on hospital grounds were therefore legal, pursuant to Florida Statute 790.25, and that persons having a Concealed Weapons Permit were also authorized because Florida Statute 790.06(12) lists all the places you can’t carry pursuant to your permit – and a hospital or mental health facility isn’t one of them. Thus you’re obviously “authorized by law”.

    Now, the State Attorney agreed with me in the case I was handling – and dropped the prosecution. However, there is no binding appellate decision on this issue, and therefore, no guarantee you couldn’t get arrested, and become the next “test case”. Just because I’m sure my interpretation is correct doesn’t mean that the rest of the world will. Likewise, the “law according to Gutmacher” isn’t quite the same thing as an Opinion by an appellate court which is binding across the State. So -- maybe some caution isn’t such a bad idea?

    I therefore would suggest that carrying inside a hospital or mental health facility pursuant to your CWP should be reserved for very special instances. Likewise, if any one knows you’re carrying, and tells the police or a security guard - I would suggest you be more than accommodating in offering to leave immediately if they feel you’re illegal, or just don’t want you there. Remember -- even if my interpretation is correct -- they still have the right to tell you to leave under trespass laws, no matter what the actual law is. So just get the heck out while you have the chance. If you get into any type of situation where you’re actually taken into custody, politely suggest to the officers that because you have a CWP, you’re not acting illegally. They’ll probably ignore you – but who knows? Can’t hurt!

    Anyway, that’s my spin on this statute. Keep safe.
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."

    Theodore Roosevelt

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
    Here's Gutmacher's interpretation. You'll note, charges were dismissed in the single case that he handled.

    I'm awfully conservative......but I have no problem ccw in a hospital.


    CAN YOU CARRY AT A HOSPITAL?© 2006 by Jon H. Gutmacher
    Florida Statute § 394.458 states “except as authorized by law” it is a third degree felony (yeah – felony!) for any person to bring, carry, possess, or transport a “firearm or other dangerous weapon” upon the grounds of any “hospital (or mental health facility) providing mental health services”. Here’s the actual wording:


    (1) (a) Except as authorized by law or as specifically authorized by the person in charge of each hospital providing mental health services under this part, it is unlawful to introduce into or upon the grounds of such hospital, or to take or attempt to take or send therefrom, any of the following articles, which are hereby declared to be contraband for the purposes of this section:

    Any intoxicating beverage or beverage . . . .
    Any controlled substance as defined in chapter 893; or
    Any firearms or deadly weapon”.

    I just handled an arrest involving this statute. I raised the defense that the phrase “except as authorized by law” meant just that – and that securely encased weapons in vehicles on hospital grounds were therefore legal, pursuant to Florida Statute 790.25, and that persons having a Concealed Weapons Permit were also authorized because Florida Statute 790.06(12) lists all the places you can’t carry pursuant to your permit – and a hospital or mental health facility isn’t one of them. Thus you’re obviously “authorized by law”.

    Now, the State Attorney agreed with me in the case I was handling – and dropped the prosecution. However, there is no binding appellate decision on this issue, and therefore, no guarantee you couldn’t get arrested, and become the next “test case”. Just because I’m sure my interpretation is correct doesn’t mean that the rest of the world will. Likewise, the “law according to Gutmacher” isn’t quite the same thing as an Opinion by an appellate court which is binding across the State. So -- maybe some caution isn’t such a bad idea?

    I therefore would suggest that carrying inside a hospital or mental health facility pursuant to your CWP should be reserved for very special instances. Likewise, if any one knows you’re carrying, and tells the police or a security guard - I would suggest you be more than accommodating in offering to leave immediately if they feel you’re illegal, or just don’t want you there. Remember -- even if my interpretation is correct -- they still have the right to tell you to leave under trespass laws, no matter what the actual law is. So just get the heck out while you have the chance. If you get into any type of situation where you’re actually taken into custody, politely suggest to the officers that because you have a CWP, you’re not acting illegally. They’ll probably ignore you – but who knows? Can’t hurt!

    Anyway, that’s my spin on this statute. Keep safe.
    David,

    VERY helpful.

    Can I ask where you got this case info from?

    Well, I guess I just did ask, didn't I?
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
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  9. #9
    VIP Member Array David in FL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miklcolt45 View Post
    David,

    VERY helpful.

    Can I ask where you got this case info from?

    Well, I guess I just did ask, didn't I?

    Sorry Mike, can't help with the actual case info. Sounds like it never made it that far (one reason I keep Jon's card in my wallet!). I remembered it as a topic that Jon had addressed on his site awhile back and was able to find it with a search.

    Here's the link to the actual Q&A: Legal Q&A with Jon Gutmacher, Author of Florida Firearms: Law, Use and Ownership

    He changes his FAQ's pretty often on his site, so this one's not there any more.

    As you mentioned, he does mention it in his book on page 102, but like here, cautions that although he's confident in his interpretation, there isn't any actual case law to support his conclusion.

    Given the wording of FL 394.498, Jon's interpretation, and the relative high-threat environment of the average hospital emergency room ( ), I'm completely comfortable with my decision to carry there.
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."

    Theodore Roosevelt

  10. #10
    Member Array NKMG19's Avatar
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    Although the law is vague about hospital carry in Florida and I could possibly beat any charges brought against me for carrying there, this is one place that I would not carry. I would leave my weapon in the car.
    NRA Member

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array tns0038's Avatar
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    Most of the hospitals in the major city near us, are in a very bad section of town, and people walking to and from there cars have been raped, murdered and mugged.

    Whenever I'm visiting family members, I always carry a pocket P3AT 380. The way I see it is It's legal and no one is going to know anyway.

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    VIP Member Array Superhouse 15's Avatar
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    baby

    Congrats on the baby. When I had mine we were in the hospital a bit longer than usual. I carried. Did you see that lady who kidnapped a baby at CFR 710 in Sanford? Not me, thanks. Program Gutmacher's number into your phone, be discreet, and carry. I'd be familiar with the letter of the law. If you get caught (see: be discreet) be able to explain and show it to the cop. when he calls a supervisor, be able to point to the relevant parts of the law in the book they will be reading from. It does say unless authorized by law, and you are.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Array MilitaryPower's Avatar
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    There are signs at my local hospital saying that ALL firearms are prohibited, even those legally concealed. I don't remember if they cite a statute or not.
    Gun control can be blamed in part for allowing 9/11 to happen.
    "Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum" (Latin)- "If you want peace, prepare for war".

  14. #14
    Member Array infoe's Avatar
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    I carry everywhere except an airplane. Especially in a hospital, usually in bad area's and police will tell you there are alot of incidents that happen at hospitals.

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