The ''space'' factor

This is a discussion on The ''space'' factor within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Matt - TPI needs registering so link no good for me - I could register but heck - too many boards/too little time, already! I ...

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 33

Thread: The ''space'' factor

  1. #16
    Assistant Administrator
    Array P95Carry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    South West PA
    Posts
    25,482
    Matt - TPI needs registering so link no good for me - I could register but heck - too many boards/too little time, already!

    I do think the eye contact thing overall is a major aspect - with maybe one exception?? I hear it said that excessive eye contact with gang bangers is taken as a challenge!!
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #17
    Distinguished Member Array Anubis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Arapahoe County CO
    Posts
    1,796

    the eyes have it

    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    I hear it said that excessive eye contact with gang bangers is taken as a challenge!!
    Most of us here, contantly evaluating possible developing threats, would definitely notice someone staring at us! And probably most of us aren't gang bangers.

    This could be true the world over. A Vietnamese immigrant told me he had trouble in job interviews here at first because he avoided eye contact. Back home, direct eye contact in such a situation is perceived as a threat. So he was trying to maintain respect for the interviewer, but some interviewers were expecting eye contact as a measure of frankness and lack of it indicated to them that the applicant was being evasive, hiding a lack of qualification, etc.

  4. #18
    Lead Moderator
    Array rocky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    15,900
    eye contact is overratted , better to watch the center of the chest. Any attacks will start with movement from there.

  5. #19
    Assistant Administrator
    Array P95Carry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    South West PA
    Posts
    25,482
    Viable point Rocky but I'd add tho that I would expect during a sustained eye contact my (still sharp) peripheral vision would pick up the smallest movement - as well or better than if my gaze was lower.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  6. #20
    New Member Array Erik S.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Las Cruces, NM
    Posts
    13
    All of the suggestions here about ways to keep your distance are absolutely great! I'm confident most of them work...and well too! But, for the times you can't keep your distance, you must be prepared.

    Ankle sheath: SOG Pentagon
    Right pocket: Emerson Commander
    Left pocket: Emerson Karambit
    Around the neck: Emerson La Griffe

    -Erik

    P.S. Thanks Justin!

  7. #21
    Administrator
    Array QKShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Off Of The X
    Posts
    35,264

    Addition:

    Well, in most of the "less desirable" areas of Pittsburgh that I sometimes frequent...USUALLY, it is the destitute alcoholic types that do the approach. They are for the most part decently harmless but, just a total P.I.T.A. in general. I've seen some get slightly POed though if they don't get any money. I used to toss a dollar down on the sidewalk for them but, it just helps them die quicker (since they only buy more booze with it & never food) so I don't anymore. While some of them are harmless...some are also very bonkers & would normally still be institutionalized except for the fact that the A.C.L.U. decided that keeping them in the Lolly~Pop~Factories was a violation of their Constitutional Rights. Since (these days) it's impossible to sort the ordinary homeless alcoholics out from the Crack Heads & the Crazy folks I don't let any of them close. Also: These days I've noticed that the "Down & Out Druggies" are getting much bolder & they are much more dangerous.

  8. #22
    Member Array Kompact9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    427
    Chris,

    Parking lots can be good for keeping separation...more than once the wife and I have changed direction just by walking between parked cars (like when they're nose to nose) and it's a quick way to put distance and a semblance of cover between you and whoever you want to avoid...food for thought.
    noli nothis permittere te terere...

  9. #23
    Assistant Administrator
    Array P95Carry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    South West PA
    Posts
    25,482
    Very true K9 - and something I do bear in mind.

    I have once or twice used the ''automobile maze'' to my possible advantage when not too happy with what my direct route included!

    On one of those occasions a buddy was with me - dear fella but lives in white, no CCW (perhaps as well!). We had exited a Mall (mid evening, dark) exit via JC Penny - and as we walked some 75 or so yards to reach my truck - I quietly and rather suddenly said ''this way'' - he registered astonishment and asked why - I just said ''later'' - and continued to steer us via a more circuitous route.

    Once mobile and away I informed him of two figures I had seen close to our intended (direct) route - he had seen nothing - zip, squat - nada!! Now these could have been ordinary folks but I felt uncomfortable and was not prepared to find out. Seems this was something of an eye opener for him and since he has become (slightly) more observant.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  10. #24
    New Member Array Scruit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    9
    Quote Originally Posted by Betty
    In a crowded area, like standing in line, I hate it when people feel like they have to stand so close they end up brushing against me.
    That annoys me also. And being new to CCW I have to also keep my awareness up to make sure the person standing behind me didn't figure out I was carrying (Usually a Strong-Side IWB under my coat) and trying to make a grab for it.

    Doesn't it also annoy you when you take a step forward to get some more distance, and they take this as a cue to close up even more? Like a Boa Constrictor, when you breath out out takes up the slack until you suffocate. Or yell "My deoderant is 'Lynx Atlantis', if you like it that much go buy some!!" at it... :chairshot

    Quote Originally Posted by Betty
    Innocently flipping all two feet of my hair in their faces works nicely.
    From the looks of your avatar, I'm not sure that'd make me want to get further away... :1saufen:

  11. #25
    Member Array SSKC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    357
    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter
    Well, in most of the "less desirable" areas of Pittsburgh that I sometimes frequent...USUALLY, it is the destitute alcoholic types that do the approach. They are for the most part decently harmless but, just a total P.I.T.A.
    I read recently (can't remember where) that the homeless street folks are almost always armed with at least a knife, screwdriver, etc. I stay well clear of them now, especially after reading of one 'harmless' street woman that stabbed a guy to death.

    SSKC

  12. #26
    VIP Member
    Array gunthorp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    home office
    Posts
    2,355
    One can obsess about space, but try creating it during rush on the NYC subway or in line at Disneyworld. A hand, arm, or elbow should defend your primary carry from pick-pockets. In a congested crowd, even they don't have the mobility to work properly. Brief eye contact and assessment of those around, cover, and escape is all important. As you near congestion, a bottleneck, or the register line, make the decision to go or no go before the crowd from behind limits your options. BG's will be waiting for the crowd to enter or exit so they can cut out their victims, test them verbally, close, and attack without making a scene. If avoidance doesn't work, the strong verbal "How can I HELP you!" with determined eye contact, and a full firing grip, is the last thing the BG wants to see or hear.

    Assessing someone who is assessing you taks a special knack. The gals are better at it than the guys. Don't inadvertantly close with someone who is positioned or moving to block your path, or who is signalling to others. Watch for any who approach from quarters or the rear, so you can use obstacles for separation.

    The notion of the NAA mini recalls the movie Assassination Tango. There is generally more safety in a crowd, but not from the professional killer.
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    OK
    Posts
    3,468
    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    Matt - TPI needs registering so link no good for me - I could register but heck - too many boards/too little time, already!

    I do think the eye contact thing overall is a major aspect - with maybe one exception?? I hear it said that excessive eye contact with gang bangers is taken as a challenge!!
    Chris, if you could only be on two boards, TPI should be one. Maybe the first one. Good crew over there......a hard crew....

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Coral Gables, FL
    Posts
    5,802
    It is very difficult to maintain space in a mall when you're shopping for Christmas presents or in other crowded venues. Easier in parking lots. I move to the side when I have time in a sort of shuffle, never crossing my feet so as to not get off balance. When I don't have time (as in the intrusion is sudden and from a direction previously undetected -- like rounding a corner) I'll take a GIANT step in an oblique direction.

    As far as the homeless, they are usually a threat when you invade what they perceive as their "space." All these folks may have in the whole world may be a bit of cardboard and three sqare feet of sidewalk in an alley. Many will defend that with whatever means they have, usually an edged weapon. For those who are on the grift (hustling bucks), I find it takes a loud expletitive to get their attention. So when a homeless person approaches me in the parking lot asking for money, I'll ask them to stop just once, politely. If they continue to approach I will loudly admonish them thusly: Are you deaf? I said GET THE F*** away from me!!! That usually gets their attention right off.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  15. #29
    Distinguished Member Array RSSZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,843
    I would like to take this opporunity to thank Phil (great links) and the rest of you for this thread. I have printed parts of it for my class this Thurs. It will be passed out to my students and we will have a discussion about this topic. This will become part of my CCW classes. As I have stated in other threads,I firmly believe that the(by far) biggest threat to us CCWer's will be the person that comes very close to us. The person that engages in casual conversation while closeing the distance. We will not be attacked with gun or knife from accross the room or simi-dark parking lot. BG's are stoopid BUT very street wise. They will get very close(if allowed to do so) and make a very sudden very agressive move on us. We all need to be as prepared as possible for the attack. Thanks again all.--------
    Last edited by RSSZ; December 5th, 2005 at 04:45 PM.

  16. #30
    Member Array TwoRavens's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    115
    Quote Originally Posted by Team American
    I was able to attend an "In Extremis Knife" training class with SouthNarc in October, and this was a major part of the evening. He recommends a verbal challenge, such as "will you not come any closer" combined with a direct move 90 degrees to the right or left to give your peripheral vision a chance to see movement from behind you if the person approaching is a ruse to distract your attention.

    An honest person should stop and not invade your space further after being asked to back off....if they continue, it is a fair indicator that something is not right.
    I took the IEx knife and EQC pistol classes with S'Narc a couple of months ago (still have some of the bruises )

    Here is a sumary of the points that stuck with me about his approach to distance/interview:
    1. Have your verbal stuff ready to go, like you have repeating loop in your head. That way your brain will be able to process other information, rather than just thinking of what to say.
    2. Start with a request for them to keep there distance in the form of a question e.g. "Can you wait right there?" This will stop regular folks without freaking them out, and enage there brain
    3. If they continue to approach, you already know something is up. Next statment should be a declarative command e.g. "Stop right there".(by this point you be backing off at 45 to 90 deg if possible)
    4. S'Narc recomended that the third statment contain some profanity e.g. "FU*%ING STOP, RIGHT THERE". In his experiance, using the F word with 'criminal' types would often produce a quicker responce. For instance, when he was on no-knock warrants and going thru a crack house yelling at people to "GET DOWN" would produce no results, but told to "GET THE F%#K DOWN" would produce compliance. Probably something to do with the cadence of the language and the subconscious

    S'Narc had revied hours of tapes where his officers had been attacked while doing undercover drug buys, and he has found that the initial attack is preceded at least one of the following:
    1. Shift if balance
    2. Look over shoulder, or to the side
    3. Hands moving tot he waist
    4. 'Target' glancing

    He had us practise in pairs, going thru the verbal stuff, and then in another evolution doing the same thing, but shouting 'Clue' when the the partner being the bad guy gave off a pre-attack signal.

    S'Narc is very good at being a bad guy, and is well versed in the subterfuges, its scary to see how quickly he can have a knife in your crotch, and his other hand round your throat....

    Excellent class by the way, highly recommended.
    /***********
    Phill
    ************/

    "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate"
    William of Ockham (ca. 1285-1349)

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Price no factor which 380?
    By skystud1 in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 106
    Last Post: June 15th, 2010, 03:25 PM
  2. Recoil factor
    By Mikey in forum General Firearm Discussion
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: November 15th, 2008, 09:29 AM
  3. The Cant Factor
    By P95Carry in forum Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: March 13th, 2005, 04:55 AM

Search tags for this page

southnarc pistol flashlight

Click on a term to search for related topics.