Should I carry a mini-cannon? - Page 3

Should I carry a mini-cannon?

This is a discussion on Should I carry a mini-cannon? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by LastManOut A very good friend of mine is a millwright by trade, which is why I believe he tends to "overbuild" things ...

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Thread: Should I carry a mini-cannon?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by LastManOut View Post
    A very good friend of mine is a millwright by trade, which is why I believe he tends to "overbuild" things beyond what I would think is necessary for the job it is intended to preform. If I were to ask him to weld up a small hibachi grill for camping, he would probably make it out of 1/2" plate steel with a miniature nuclear reactor power plant to drive the 36" bellows fan needed to stoke the charcoal to 2200F.

    This seems to be the way some people decide on which weapon they should carry for self-defense. The reason I believe is they may be basing their decision on which caliber, barrel length, ammunition they need because of what they perceive will be the situation in which they will need to use their weapon to defend themselves.

    As I understand the statistics, the scenarios in which someone would need to defend themselves have that 90% of the gunfights are within 9 feet or 3 yards with 3 shots fired within 10 seconds (IIRC). Yet, most people buy a gun, ammunition, sights and train for fights starting at 21 feet or 7 yards out past 25 yards simply because they believe this is where the fight will take place, so they logically believe they need to carry a pistol configured as if it were a mini-sniper rifle.

    A .25, .32 or .380 caliber fired at point blank range into someone's gut or under their chin, should to be plenty of deterrent for the 90% +/- odds of how your gunfight may occur. Of course there is always the situation that you will be under-gunned, with not enough ammo to be able to eliminate the threat out to a distance that requires a 6x power scope on a .308 Model 700, but for the statistical normal scenario we as armed citizens will run into a snub-nosed revolver in .38 caliber will do the trick.


    :Okay let the arrows fly:
    Here's the deal... I don't know about you, but Mr. Murphy is my co-pilot!

    Take it from people who have been in actual gunfights and lived through them...

    Each one of the following lived through from 3 - 19 gunfights and two are still alive today. None of them are from the wild west of over 100 years ago, one died of a heart attack in the 1970's and one died in a car wreck this past year. Not all of them are LEO's either. Jim Cirillo, Evan Marshall, D.A. "Jelly" Bryce and civilian Lance Thompson come to mind.

    They all carry two and three guns and in major calibers. There's something to be said about that! They do not carry mouse guns!

    That said, my next purchase is going to be for a mouse gun. But that is for those rare and discreet special occasions when a "mouse gun" is better than NO Gun!

    My routine carry is a .40 cal hi-capacity Glock-23 and a hi-capacity XD9sc plus reloads. Sometimes I will add a Ruger SP-101 .357 snub as a third gun.

    +1 on Hotguns excellent post!
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."


  2. #32
    Senior Member Array dgg9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Alot of people incorrectly assume that because they can shoot the center out of a target at 7 yards, that it will translate to being able to hit a man at the distance, and nothing is further from the truth.
    Excellent post. When one's only frame of reference is static shooting at the local range, it's easy to think close range shots are easy, trivial even.

    When you add movement, fear, target focus, it all changes. As you say, a good course of FoF sweeps away many misconceptions.

  3. #33
    Member Array billfromtx's Avatar
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    I practice double and triple taps at 3-15 yards and also practice rested and off hand shooting to 50 yards...Good COM hits at 50 YARDS become fairly easy with practice and proper mechanics. You never know when a 50 yard shot will be neccesary i.e mall, church, work, public, psycho nut jobs on a killing spree...

    My carry is a XD-45 Compact...
    With a snubbie a 50 yard shot would be a lot tougher...:)
    USMC 1984-1992
    To err is human.
    To forgive is divine.
    Neither of which is Marine Corps policy.

    "It's all about shot placement."- David (Slayer of Goliath)

  4. #34
    Member Array Preacher Mick's Avatar
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    The Kahr P9 is not exactly a "cannon", but it is large enough to fit my hand and small enough to be comfortable IWB. And, although I've never had to shoot anyone, I would think that the 9mm hollowpoints would prevent over penetration in most cases.

    Kahr also makes a P40 and P45 if you would rather have more power and still have a small concealable gun.

    A .22, .25, or .32 cal can kill you, but your shot has to be just right. At least 9mm leaves a little room for error. Just don't leave home without it.

  5. #35
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    HotGuns had some great info. on his post.

    Get into some FoF or simuntions. Even without the ballistic effect, see how you execute when the stress level goes up.

    Dry-fire train. I am a proponent of the beamhit in-barrel laser training system. Feedback and you can train every night at home without worrying about the cost of ammo.

    I'd like to add my thoughts. It is the software and not the hardware. Most people take the path of least resistance. And like other things, the path of least resistance it to try to "buy" your way to proficiency. It is always easier to spend X$ and delude yourself into believing that you are better prepared than someone who spend x$.

    Most of us are, in some part, gear whores (when it comes to hanguns). We should endeavor to be training/practicing whores. Some of us pride ourselves that we can punch a raggedy hole on a target with a nice crisp SA trigger on a custom 45. That in no way transfers over to stopping a lethal threat when things are going sideways and everyone is moving.

    And instead of asking yourself if you feel comfortable carrying a 5 shot snubbie in 38spl or a wonder9 or a 45 or a 10mm, ask yourself if you feel comfortable in a real life honest self defense situation with the amount of training AND practicing your currently do.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Array dgg9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sojourner View Post
    And instead of asking yourself if you feel comfortable carrying a 5 shot snubbie in 38spl or a wonder9 or a 45 or a 10mm, ask yourself if you feel comfortable in a real life honest self defense situation with the amount of training AND practicing your currently do.
    + infinite

  7. #37
    Senior Member Array rdoggsilva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sojourner View Post
    HotGuns had some great info. on his post.

    Get into some FoF or simuntions. Even without the ballistic effect, see how you execute when the stress level goes up.

    Dry-fire train. I am a proponent of the beamhit in-barrel laser training system. Feedback and you can train every night at home without worrying about the cost of ammo.

    I'd like to add my thoughts. It is the software and not the hardware. Most people take the path of least resistance. And like other things, the path of least resistance it to try to "buy" your way to proficiency. It is always easier to spend X$ and delude yourself into believing that you are better prepared than someone who spend x$.

    Most of us are, in some part, gear whores (when it comes to hanguns). We should endeavor to be training/practicing whores. Some of us pride ourselves that we can punch a raggedy hole on a target with a nice crisp SA trigger on a custom 45. That in no way transfers over to stopping a lethal threat when things are going sideways and everyone is moving.

    And instead of asking yourself if you feel comfortable carrying a 5 shot snubbie in 38spl or a wonder9 or a 45 or a 10mm, ask yourself if you feel comfortable in a real life honest self defense situation with the amount of training AND practicing your currently do.
    So true. I know folks who carry the latest and baddest handguns made. But rarely if ever practice with them, believing that a close combat ranges that they will hit their target. And when they do shot are all over the target, and think that is good enough. I have quit worry about them are just do not say anything to them any more about it. I just worry about some innocent bystander that they may hit trying to hit their target.
    John Steinbeck: Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he's too old to fight, he'll just kill you.

  8. #38
    Member Array oldpoet451's Avatar
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    My one and (thank GOD) only use of deadly force I used this...



    Loaded with these...


    (this is the last box from the original case I had at the time)

    We heard them break the glass in our kitchen door. Wife dialed 911, I went to the open bedroom door, knelt and partially closed the door, hollered that I had a gun, the police where on the way and to get the hell out of my house. One of them fired at me. I returned fire, firing 3 rounds (while they both fired at me). I could see their shapes against the kitchen and dining room windows.

    I believe I fired in the following order: round 1 at #1 at approx. 12 feet, round 2 at #2 at approx. 15 feet, round 3 at #1 at approx. 10 feet. #1 hit the floor (with 1 in the chest & 1 in the thigh, no exits) and #2 surrendered at this point (with 1 in the shoulder, no exit). I have no idea how long the exchange lasted. They fired (according to the sheriff's dept.) 6 rounds each with no hits (if I remember correctly, they had a pair of S&W model 10s stolen during another burglary).

    The 911 tape recorded my shouts, their first shot, the exchange of shots, and #2 screaming "I give up, I give up, don't shoot me anymore!" all of which lasted about 1 minute total.

    #1 went to the morgue, #2 went to the hospital, then jail, then the pen. They thought we weren’t home. They’d burglarized at least 7 other houses and robbed 3 more in the neighborhood over the previous 4 months (based on stolen goods found at their homes). One other where an old lady was home they beat her up pretty bad. The county prosecutor told me he thought they’d done at least a 4 more robberies and a dozen more burglaries but he couldn’t prove it.

    The coroner's inquest found it justifiable homicide, but #1's family tried to sue for wrongful death anyway. During the preliminary phase (after 5 months and $12,000 to my hunting buddy the lawyer) the judge dismissed the case, with prejudice, based on the “facts in evidence”. #1, they fired the first shot (the evidence on the 911 taped established that fact forensically); and #2, Arkansas’s “castle doctrine” does NOT require you to retreat when you are in your own home, but instead, allows, if the person was not the original aggressor, for the use of deadly force.
    "Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready." --Teddy Roosevelt

  9. #39
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    Good Job oldpoet !

    Glad you lived though it. It is very possible that if they had encountered you and you could'nt defend yourself you would'nt be here to write about your encounter and you would just be another stastic.

    That's dang good shooting. Two for Three while taking fire.

    Exellent.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  10. #40
    Member Array oldpoet451's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Good Job oldpoet !

    Glad you lived though it. It is very possible that if they had encountered you and you could'nt defend yourself you would'nt be here to write about your encounter and you would just be another stastic.

    That's dang good shooting. Two for Three while taking fire.

    Exellent.
    I was damned lucky. There were 4 bullet holes within inches of the door jamb I was leaning against. And they were STUPID. Neither took cover behind anything or really moved, they just blazed away, creating perfect targets. I didn't really think, I just acted. The only thing I can remember I thought about was what Bill Jordan once told me after one of his demos when I asked him what was the most important thing to do in a gun fight. He said, "Hit the damn target."
    "Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready." --Teddy Roosevelt

  11. #41
    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LastManOut View Post
    ...A .25, .32 or .380 caliber fired at point blank range into someone's gut or under their chin, should to be plenty of deterrent for the 90% +/- odds of how your gunfight may occur. Of course there is always the situation that you will be under-gunned, with not enough ammo to be able to eliminate the threat out to a distance that requires a 6x power scope on a .308 Model 700, but for the statistical normal scenario we as armed citizens will run into a snub-nosed revolver in .38 caliber will do the trick.


    :Okay let the arrows fly:
    So, you believe that small caliber, under-powered handguns are equally effective when compared to larger caliber handguns, that most of the rest of us shouldn't have more than a stock .38 snubby revolver with more than three rounds of ammo, and that anything more than that is over-engineering the solution. Got it. Sounds like a troll, to me.
    - Tom
    You have the power to donate life.

  12. #42
    Member Array LastManOut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom357 View Post
    So, you believe that small caliber, under-powered handguns are equally effective when compared to larger caliber handguns, that most of the rest of us shouldn't have more than a stock .38 snubby revolver with more than three rounds of ammo, and that anything more than that is over-engineering the solution. Got it. Sounds like a troll, to me.

    So discussing concepts that you do not agree with is "trolling"?

    My point, once again is, most individuals are preparing for gunfights at 50 yards (like on TV) not a close-up and personal confrontation. Are YOU going to pull your weapon when the gang-banger is 25 yards away from you and fire? Usually he is 'in your face', within 8" of your nose, politely asking you to give him your wallet. What will you elephant gun do here that a .380 auto will not do?

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by LastManOut View Post
    So discussing concepts that you do not agree with is "trolling"?

    My point, once again is, most individuals are preparing for gunfights at 50 yards (like on TV) not a close-up and personal confrontation. Are YOU going to pull your weapon when the gang-banger is 25 yards away from you and fire? Usually he is 'in your face', within 8" of your nose, politely asking you to give him your wallet. What will you elephant gun do here that a .380 auto will not do?
    Totally agree. I recently posted on the forum a SD gunfight where the CCW (LTCF for us PA folks) had to shoot under a car door at the legs of the perp while he was receiving fire. I would guess it was all of 2 - 3 feet distance tops. Definitely not a 25 yard gunfight.

    Our training should be like how something is engineered. We should train to be the most effective / efficient where the gunbattles will occur. Not where we can have bragging rights.

    Many just buy a high $ big gun with a high caliber so they can have bragging rights. Then they brag about a ragged hole @ 25 - 50 yards (while shooting un-timed under clear blue skies with one eye closed). If their goal is to have bragging rights, well then OK. However, if their goal is to survive a deadly enconter, they are waaaay off in matching their training to the goal of surviving a deadly encounter.

  14. #44
    Senior Member Array boscobeans's Avatar
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    ""Usually he is 'in your face', within 8" of your nose, politely asking you to give him your wallet. What will you elephant gun do here that a .380 auto will not do?""

    I don't know about and Elephant gun, but i am hoping that my .357 snubbie will end the conflict quickly and keep the BG from doing bodily harm to my 62 year old carcass. Yes a .380 will do the job but something a little more substantial will do it better. Just check all the stats out there. Not a macho thing, just some common sense... And that's just my two cents.

    Bosco

  15. #45
    Senior Member Array dunndw's Avatar
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    When you let someone get close enough for you to stick your .25 under their chin, you'll have to big their knife out of your ribcage.
    I'll deal with the extra weight and problems caused by carrying my 1911.

    PS..my "elephant gun" up close and personal will make one hell of a wound channel...especially at contact distances.
    "If I was an extremist, our founding fathers would all be extremists," he said. "Without them, we wouldn't have our independence. We'd be a disarmed British system of feudal subjectivity."

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