What would you have done?
This is a discussion on What would you have done? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Its a gun for gods sake. What is the big deal? It is a tool we all choose to use and carry daily, there should ...
September 3rd, 2008 12:57 PM
Its a gun for gods sake. What is the big deal? It is a tool we all choose to use and carry daily, there should be no alarm or police calling or teaching the guy a lesson or whatever.
You either leave it alone, or put it in a more secure place in the vehicle, glove box, trunk, console. Yes, you can pick it up, if your a mechanic, you have plenty of shop towels around so you don't get your finger prints on the thing for petes sake.
If you move it, when the guy picks his car up you tell him where you moved it to. End of story.
When did it become our responsibility to police the rest of the world for something that is probably not even illegal. Maybe it wasn't smart to leave it under the seat, but we all do things on occasion that others think aren't particularly smart.
Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
Texas CHL Instructor
Texas Hunter Education Instructor
September 3rd, 2008 01:03 PM
An unattended tire-iron is a danger to the public as well, so maybe locked in the trunk with the tire iron is a good plan.
Originally Posted by Ram Rod
September 3rd, 2008 01:05 PM
I am with Hotguns. Leave it alone. Only move it if it is in your way while doing the work. When finished put it back. It is not your property. It is also none of your business how customers store there property. Moving it and not putting it back could have bad results. Loss of bond or insurance.
September 3rd, 2008 01:27 PM
It's his property, his car, and none of your business.
September 3rd, 2008 01:44 PM
While I agree that an LEO shouldn't be called unless you have other undeniable suspicions, I'm on the fence as to whether it should be secured. I tend to say yes, you should lock it in the trunk, for a couple of reasons:
- While some of you may live in an area that is entirely pro-gun, or where almost everybody carries guns in their cars, etc., that isn't the case everywhere. Even if it is the case in a given scenario, if you have any goofballs or "questionable" personalities working in your shop (as was said, nearly all have them), or perhaps any immature teenager types like the owner's son or a part-timer, then I believe you have a responsibility to ensure the safety of both yourself and those employees and customers around the shop.
- As someone said, a lot of times these shops leave vehicles parked unattended in the lot. If someone were to break in (or open an unlocked door), find the weapon and steal it, then use it to hurt an innocent victim, would you want that on your head? Even if you weren't criminally liable, you could be sued. Even if you never mentioned that you knew it was there, and avoided any legal liability, it would still be on your *conscience* to know that if you had just taken the step of locking it up, a tragedy could have been avoided.
Personally, the weight of those two "what-if" scenarios would override any concern over touching a customer's property. I just can't help but think it a bit naive to consider a loaded gun as no different than a GPS or other benign property. If that were the case, you wouldn't be securing your loaded guns at home around your small children, right? At least I hope you're doing that.
So I think I'd have to secure the weapon, then take the owner aside and quietly let him know that I secured his weapon for the safety of yourself, your shop, and the public, as well as for the owner's own liability. I think most would appreciate it, especially if you didn't chastise or preach to them about it. Most responsible gun owners would be embarrassed enough by such a faux pas as to consider even the friendly comment to be a veiled condemnation (I know I would). If the owner was irresponsible and wanted to get angry about it, screw 'em -- safety and my conscience are more important. They should be thankful the person who found it was pro-gun and looking out for them, because imagine what would happen if the mechanic was a paying member of the Brady Bunch!
Kimber Pro CDP II • Colt Combat Commander • Glock 26 GNS • Ruger Mark III 22/45 • Kahr CW9 (sold)
September 3rd, 2008 02:05 PM
I am with hot guns on this one leave it alone!
Why Would A Preacher ever need a Gun? Its Not for the Sheep , its for the Wolves!
Springfield Armory Service XD 40
Taurus PT 1911 45 acp Taurus PT 101, PT 92
Ruger 22/45 Ruger P95 9mm, Ruger SR9
Kahr CW 40, Heritage 22, Rossi 38 special
September 3rd, 2008 02:34 PM
I agree that the owner turned his vehicle over to the shop and had a reasonable expectation that his belongings were secure. Most here can seem to "sense" the danger of a firearm but in our myopic view we don't realize what can be really dangerous. Like SIXTO said, the gun is a high value item (dangerous in the wrong hands) and like another said the tire iron is also dangerous. In SIXTOs scenario the most dangerous item IS the GPS. Depending on the model it could be very dangerous. It can range from BGs in the desert using it for navigation or making a homemade cruise missile. Certainly, the firearm has more urgent danger but the GPS could be more dangerous if in the wrong hands and exported. Most you see aren't a problem but the Dpet of Commerce mus make that call when exporting. See ITAR regs below.
Originally Posted by SDM
So, if it were me I'd leave it alone. Make sure THAT vehicle gets locked when the work is done.
Excerpted International Traffic in Arms (ITAR) Regulation
(c) Global Positioning System (GPS) receiving equipment specifically designed, modified or configured for military use; or GPS receiving equipment with any of the following characteristics:
(1) Designed for encryption or decryption (e.g., Y-Code) of GPS precise positioning service (PPS) signals;
(2) Designed for producing navigation results above 60,000 feet altitude and at 1,000 knots velocity or greater;
(3) Specifically designed or modified for use with a null steering antenna or including a null steering antenna designed to reduce or avoid jamming signals;
(4) Designed or modified for use with unmanned air vehicle systems capable of delivering at least a 500 kg payload to a range of at least 300 km.
Note: GPS receivers designed or modified for use with military unmanned air vehicle systems with less capability are considered to be specifically designed, modified or configured for military use and therefore covered under this subparagraph.
Any GPS equipment not meeting this definition is subject to the jurisdiction of the Department of Commerce (DOC). Manufacturers or exporters of equipment under DOC jurisdiction are advised that the U.S. Government does not assure the availability of the GPS P-Code for civil navigation. It is the policy of the Department of Defense (DOD) that GPS receivers using P-Code without clarification as to whether or not those receivers were designed or modified to use Y-Code will be presumed to be Y-Code capable and covered under this subparagraph. The DOD policy further requires that a notice be attached to all P-Code receivers presented for export. The notice must state the following: "ADVISORY NOTICE: This receiver uses the GPS P-Code signal, which by U.S. policy, may be switched off without notice."
September 3rd, 2008 02:52 PM
First of all, the owner is very fortunate that you were the one working on his vehicle. I would call him and tell him that you found his handgun and that you are securing it for him. He's going to feel bad and he should.
Originally Posted by V8
"[A]rms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
- Thomas Paine, Thoughts On Defensive War, 1775
September 3rd, 2008 03:32 PM
Early 1990 I opened a trunk of a customers car after installing a hitch to install wiring for trailer light plug so he could tow a trailer back home. Sitting in the trunk area is a nickle plated 9mm in a holster. Figuring it was a BB gun I picked it up to move it out of my way. Sure enough it is real, heavy and fully loaded. So I placed it in the bottom of his golf bag. After showing him how to use the hitch,ball and lights I asked him if he noticed and thing missing. NOPE Everythings here. Thanks me and he goes to leave. Sir I just want you to know that I placed your 9 mm in the bottom of your gold bag. Oh! I forgot it was there, I have so many guns I usally mis-place some.
Should I kept in with me in the front of the car?
Sure, If you want to get arrested and sentenced for 1 year for carrying a illegal gun. Leave it in the trunk until you get home.
If the trunk of the vehicle was secure and the owner seamed half way decent. Not a stick-up guy. I would inform customer bad thing to do.
September 3rd, 2008 03:59 PM
The owner of the shop has a responsibility to his employees to protect them from themselves. Think about it, if you don't wear your safety gear, he pays the OSHA fines. I feel this situation falls into the same type of category. As lead tech I assume you preform some supervisory/management type functions and are the owners/managers representative for certain functions? Therefore you have a responsibility to keep your less mature co-workers from being stupid, on the owner's behalf. Although we all look at a gun as a high dollar tool, others look at it as a dangerous item. If one of your less than stellar co-workers were to come across it and hurt themselves or others the owner could be held liable due to your inaction. I realize this sounds like babysitting, but think about the court system (civil) today and believe that you and the owner would be defendants in the law suit.
ETA: So secure the weapon and inform the owner that you have done so.
Last edited by Free American; September 3rd, 2008 at 04:01 PM.
They who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Previously known as "cjm5874"
September 3rd, 2008 05:49 PM
Personally I would moved it out of the way and kept working. A lot of people with and without permits leave a gun in their car. It's not the way I operate but a lot of people do. If there was no place to safely move it out of the way too then I would have locked it in the trunk and told the owner that I had moved it.
September 3rd, 2008 05:55 PM
At most I would have called the owner and see if they wanted to come pick it up, or if they would want to you lock it in the trunk.
September 3rd, 2008 06:25 PM
I have run my own business for quite a few years now.
Customer service is very important to me.
I would decide if the gun in its current location was accessable to anyone who I didn't know for sure would be safe around firearms.
If so, I would secure it.
Next, I would call the customer.
I don't feel any need to teach him a lesson. We ALL make mistakes.
fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).
September 3rd, 2008 09:23 PM
Probably converse with the customer. But, most likely just leave it alone and say nothing..
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.
September 3rd, 2008 09:25 PM
I would leave it alone. Only problem I see is someone that does not have a CCW could not / should not road test this vehicle unless gun is unloaded and locked in trunk. I worked in an Auto dealer for about 10 years. One of my responsibilities was to appraise vehicles for trade-in. This always involved a short road test. We always checked the glove box/console for info about maintenance, past history of repeat repairs, etc, etc. Lost count of the number of times a loaded pistol was found in the glove box. Never gave it much thought at the time (even thou I did not have a CCW), just laid the gun on the seat until I finished my search and then carefully placed the gun back where I found it. (carefully wiping my prints off of it, just in case) This was 20+ years ago when concealed carry permits here in Mich were very difficult to obtain. Most of these gun owners that were careless probably did not possess permits themselves.