Are CCW'ers better citizens?

This is a discussion on Are CCW'ers better citizens? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Since I didn't have anything else to do, or actually didn't want to do some stupid Census reports for the Department of Commerce on some ...

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Thread: Are CCW'ers better citizens?

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Are CCW'ers better citizens?

    Since I didn't have anything else to do, or actually didn't want to do some stupid Census reports for the Department of Commerce on some of my clients this morning, I started to look up some of the figures on Texas Concealed Handgun Licensees and Crime ect.

    These figures are based on a population of roughly 23.5 million people in the state, and I am going on the assumption that the convictions are of Texans, I am sure some aren't.

    From 2002 to 2006 the number of convictions in the state and number of CHL holders convicted were as follows:

    Convictions ------- CHL Convictions --------- CHL Holders
    55,904 -------------------74------------------- 224,172
    59,770 -------------------71--------------------239,863
    63,715 -------------------99--------------------239,940
    60,873 ------------------153--------------------248,874
    61,539 ------------------140--------------------258,162

    % of Pop--------------------- % of CHL holders
    .00238---------------------------.000330
    .00254---------------------------.000296
    .00271---------------------------.000413
    .00259---------------------------.000615
    .00262---------------------------.000542

    By my figures, the CHL holders are 4 to 9 times less likely to be convicted of a major crime in Texas, but it appears as more people get their CHL's the numbers are gettting closer.

    With the vast increase this past year of the number of people applying for their CHL's, refer to threads about wait times in Texas, I am curious to see over the next few years how these figures will play out. I hope that the % of CHL holders convicted of major crimes doesn't continue to increase. I guess we shouldn't be surprised since you have to have a clean record to get your CHL in the first place but it is nice to see that after recieving the permit folks still keep their noses clean for the most part.

    How does Texas rate in this area compared to the other states?
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  3. #2
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    Same here. Last time I saw stats on it, CHL holders were had the lowest incident rate of ANY group that was published.
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    Just because we decide to carry, IMHO it doesn't make us any better then
    anyone else. Perhaps as is obvious we are Armed, concealed, .But not neccesarily a better citizen,. One Opionion.
    quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by enigmaone View Post
    Just because we decide to carry, IMHO it doesn't make us any better then
    anyone else. Perhaps as is obvious we are Armed, concealed, .But not neccesarily a better citizen,. One Opionion.
    Perhaps it's because we are better citizens first that we go through the process of fingerprinting, background checks, etc. to receive a permit to carry concealed.

    We know we can pass the checks (at least I hope we know) because of being a standup citizen our entire lives, and I would think receiving a CCW license wouldn't change that.

    I doubt many career criminals even attempt to apply for a CCW license, to say nothing of actually having one.

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    Too bad that so many states treat CCW holders and applicants like criminals, requiring the submission of multiple sets of fingerprints, etc with an application.
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    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by enigmaone View Post
    Just because we decide to carry, IMHO it doesn't make us any better then anyone else...
    CCW / CCL should be your more law abiding citizens by definition.

    There is a weakness to the math a little. The average person with a CCW / CCL is issued a back ground and the net should catch most who are criminals (thus not issued a permit).


    Some good people carry (for various reasons) without a permit (even if the law requires).

    So an important question, of people who carry (both legal and illegal) are they more often involved in crimes.

    This would still be skewed because a good guy might carry because he knows his occupation dictates the need to carry.

    I have talked to a few CCW holders who are a little on the questionable side.

    I have noticed they are better people once they get the CCW because they do not want to loose the CCW, don't want to let down the CCW community, and take greater effort not to be one of the BG.

    However, to answer the OP, CCW / CCL should be your more law abiding citizens by definition.

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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Farron,

    Below are two items I'd posted in the past that are relevant to your OP:

    * http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...tml#post131811
    * http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...tml#post131807

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    Just because we decide to carry, IMHO it doesn't make us any better then
    anyone else. Perhaps as is obvious we are Armed, concealed, .But not neccesarily a better citizen,. One Opionion.
    Its a fact that most citizens are law abiding. The only problem is, they dont belong to a specific group, because they represent every faction of society.

    Would you argee that permit holders are shown to be the most law abiding of any "classifiable" group?

    That would be a more accurate statement I think.
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    Statistically speaking, as the population of CHL holders increases, the number of convictions for that population will go up. Nothing anyone can do about that.

    What will affect how that number looks is the number of convictions for the general population. If the overall convictions go down as CHL's increase, the numbers will look worse for us.

    What's interesting is that someone needs to define the correllation between increased CHL's and lower crime rates. If CHLs keep going up and crime keeps going down (assuming it would = less convictions for overall public), the gap would narrow and it would appear that folks with CHL's are no better criminally than the rest of the population. Anti-gunners would then say we are just as risky as joe shmoe and could make a case to get rid of concealed carry.

    If the link can be made that we actually have an impact on crime, it would be the only defense to say we are making a difference in society. I've seen the case argued that we do, but nothing that is a definative slam dunk (rare in the numbers game, I know).

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    jfl
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    An armed society is a polite society...

    Also, most criminals are not first time offenders; that rules them out for CCW.

    Would be criminals (or those who didn't get caught) will not like the idea of filling the form and getting fingerprinted.

    Same thing for drug addicts.

    Actually, maybe it boils down to responsibility.
    To have a legally acquired gun, to decide to train and pass the test shows a responsible person.
    Responsible people are probably less prone to commit crimes.

    I would be curious to see, in these statistics, what kind of crime the CCW crowd committed .
    I would bet it's more love triangles, road rage, bad self-defense reaction (shooting when not necessary), etc.

    But maybe, for once, I am too optimistic about human nature
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    Senior Member Array youngda9's Avatar
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    Yes

    If better citizen = more law abiding.

    Then the answer to your question is YES BY ABOUT AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE. This is based on your % of population statistics.
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    New Member Array Rick N's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonesy_26 View Post
    Statistically speaking, as the population of CHL holders increases, the number of convictions for that population will go up. Nothing anyone can do about that.
    But that's not the quantity you actually want to measure. The per capita number of convictions in the population of CCP holders is what you actually want to know--e.g., if the number of CCP holders increases from 10,000 to 30,000, and the number of convictions increases from 10 to 30, the statistical rate of criminality (one per one thousand CCP holders) remains constant.
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    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfl View Post
    An armed society is a polite society...
    No way. I admit, I'm trolling here, and this is not the intent of the OP.

    However, you need to come to Detroit. The society is armed but far from polite.

    For whatever argument you want to make, there is a good side of town and a bad side of town. Even if everyone had guns, if you step onto the bad side of town, polite does not equal armed.

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    Even if everyone had guns, if you step onto the bad side of town, polite does not equal armed..
    Armed means nothing other than a fighting chance. No more, no less.
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    You can find some very detailed breakdown by year for Conviction Rates for Concealed Handgun License Holders here in Texas:

    Texas DPS - Conviction Rates Reports
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