Can you carry concealed on Corp of Engineers Lakes

This is a discussion on Can you carry concealed on Corp of Engineers Lakes within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Well I have got it all sorted out for here at our Corps lake. The state park is a totally diffrent set of rules but ...

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Thread: Can you carry concealed on Corp of Engineers Lakes

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array f8lranger4x4's Avatar
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    Well I have got it all sorted out for here at our Corps lake. The state park is a totally diffrent set of rules but here are the rules for corps land.


    [I][Code of Federal Regulations]
    [Title 36, Volume 3, Parts 300 to end]
    [Revised as of July 1, 1998]
    From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
    [CITE: 36CFR327.13]

    [Page 10]

    TITLE 36--PARKS, FORESTS, AND PUBLIC PROPERTY

    CHAPTER III--CORPS OF ENGINEERS, DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY

    PART 327--RULES AND REGULATIONS GOVERNING PUBLIC USE OF WATER RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT PROJECTS ADMINISTERED BY THE CHIEF OF ENGINEERS--Table of Contents

    Sec. 327.13 Explosives, firearms, other weapons and fireworks.

    The possession of loaded firearms, ammunition, loaded projectile
    firing devices, bows and arrows, crossbows, explosives or explosive
    devices of any kind, including fireworks, is prohibited unless:
    (a) In the possession of a Federal, state or local law enforcement
    officer;
    (b) Being used for hunting or fishing as permitted under Sec. 327.8,
    with devices being unloaded when transported to, from or between hunting
    and fishing sites;
    (c) Being used at authorized shooting ranges; or
    (d) Written permission has been received from the District Engineer.






    Here is the website.
    http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_98/36cfr327_98.html

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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffeecup View Post
    Odd that you asked at this time.

    Just last week I posed the very same question to the COE Ranger here. The answer was,"I'm not sure, but I dont see where you would be in any sort of violation if you have a CCW.It might be better if you checked with the main office".

    My property ajoins the COE here on Barkley Lake and I regularly shoot into my woodpile located right on the line with no problems...........YET!
    LBL is off limits. It really sux too. One of the only areas to camp around here. I'm not really sure where is off limits in the surrounding area.

  4. #18
    Distinguished Member Array Colin's Avatar
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    The lake would be a navigable waterbody and by law be similar to a highway, I wonder if that would have effect on the law?

  5. #19
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    The way I understand it is the Corps owns the dam and the state owns and polices the lake.
    Mark Twain:
    The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a
    patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array coffeecup's Avatar
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    Sorry to bust your bubble Timmy. It just isnt so. The COE (U.S.Govt) owns and manages the lakes and the surrounding shoreline up to 10 feet above the high water mark and has another 10 feet or above that of "easment"(read imminent domain). Here that would put water over the top of the dam with the gates closed. Property owners may obtain permits to build a dock or mow, but not to remove any growing vegatation larger than 1" in diameter. We cant even trim trees higher than 7feet from the base of that tree if it is on COE property.

    I feel your pain Kycarry. LBL has nice red signs posted at every entrance stating,"NO FIREARMS PERMITTED EXCEPT DURING PERMITTED HUNTING SEASON". This means that we cannot even travel thru there with a firearm in the vehicle.

    On the other hand, Ky. Lake is controlled by TVA, and their rules are totally different. Only the water is under Federal supervision with the exception of the mentioned easements. Yeah "it suks".

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    The subject and feedback by many of this thread is an excellent example of how and why it is important to know and _understand_ laws.

    Just because you've always done something and no one has questioned or called you on as much does not make it right/lawful.
    Because you were or have seen others hunting on a given land does not make it okay/lawful to carry concealed whilst _not hunting_.
    And just because you ask a ranger/LEO what the score is does not mean that persons statements and/or allowance (or disallowance) are actually correct.

    The law is very clear here, it is not legal to carry firearms on CoE property outside of the narrow conditions as are stated in the law.
    Considering the OP was asking not about hunting on CoE land/waters but to carry arms concealed for non-hunting purposes if he had done so he'd have been in violation of _federal_ law, not those of the state or locality. That would be a problem.

    Know your laws, read them, and understand them within correct context.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  8. #22
    Senior Member Array rmarkob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    The law is very clear here, it is not legal to carry firearms on CoE property outside of the narrow conditions as are stated in the law.
    Yep, Title 36 is pretty clear. I don't dispute that, but I have some other questions:

    I understand the National Park carry ban is a DOI regulation, not a federal statute. Any legal scholars on here familiar with how CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) compares? Do they both carry the same weight? What's the difference between USC (US Code) and CFR? What's the penalty for violation of Title 36?
    Clinging to guns and God in PA...

  9. #23
    Member Array JG01's Avatar
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    USACE property = federal jurisdiction = no weapons.

  10. #24
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    Former COE and NPS Ranger

    The title 36 CFR does not recognize CCW. But you must understand that this particular CFR goes back to the mid 1980's prior to any state CCW or CHL legislation. It would have been good if the Senate had decided to revise this CFR as well.

    There are a number of regulations that the COE chooses or is unable to enforce. 1) COE Rangers, while they are considered Federal Law Enforcement Officers under Federal Statute they do not have the authority to arrest, investigate, or carry out search and siezure. They are essentially meter maids. They are not sent to FLTC for law enforcement training, they are not permitted to carry firearms. All law enforcement activities on COE reservoirs are conducted by either contract local SD's or PD's, of course the FBI, DEA, BAFT, Secret Service and other federal and state law enforcemet agencies do have juristication; however only COE Park Ranger's only have the authority to "enforce" and "ticket" you for a violation of portion of Title 36. Even if you were "ticketed" there is no system to pass that information on to any state authority. The COE ticket system does not generate a "misdemeanor" or "felony" offence.

    COE lakes are considered to be under concurrent juristiction with the State that they are located within. There is no exclusive federal authority or juristiction within a COE boundary.

    I do not believe that is very likely that anyone would be cited (ticketed) on a COE facility for carrying concealed.

    I am not encouraging anyone to carry concealed within any COE juristiction.

    Steve4351

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Interesting, very interesting...and unfortunate for COE law enforcers.

    Even USFWS agents have FLEO powers and full law enforcement capabilities and authorities thereafter, as well as permission to carry/keep a firearm on duty.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  12. #26
    Member Array kf4uel's Avatar
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    All you need to know

    Looks like the fine is up to 500.00 and or no more than 6 months in jail for violation of any of the "park rules"


    Heres the full document:

    http://www.saw.usace.army.mil/jhkerr/ep1165.pdf

    BTW: I visited Buggs Island, VA over the last couple days, camping/ RV'n with my GF's family... Park people are nice its just a sheep pen...Signs everyone telling you no fishing here, no standing here, dont put your towels here, dont walk here, dont do this...lol
    The printed park rules dont mention firearm usage and point to Title 36 CFR 327.12 for more info however a reference there continues to not mention the usage.... you're right the orginal CFR goes back to the 80's however the handout has a new revision date....

    Throwing firearms out of the equation "you could be imprisioned up to six months for littering, or fishing from the dock" LOL

    I dont anticipate problems here

    Heres a copy of the handout

    http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j181/svfs/ACE.jpg

    found an updated regulation doc
    Ok so heres my take, the regulation has been modified (1999 Version)
    In the event you come 500 miles to go camping, and have a firearm you must discard your ammo at the gate.
    http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/w...cfr327_99.html


    327.13 Explosives, firearms, other
    weapons and fireworks.
    The possession of loaded firearms,
    ammunition, loaded projectile firing
    devices, bows and arrows, crossbows,
    explosives or explosive devices of any
    kind, including fireworks, is prohibited
    unless:
    (a) In the possession of a Federal,
    state or local law enforcement officer;
    (b) Being used for hunting or fishing
    as permitted under 327.8, with devices
    being unloaded when transported to,
    from or between hunting and fishing
    sites;
    (c) Being used at authorized shooting
    ranges; or
    (d) Written permission has been received
    from the District Engineer.
    "What if? If not, who needs seatbelts, life rafts, and fire extingishers. Sure theres other ways, if thats what you want... I know ill be alive, dry, and not on fire!"

    G17, G19, G36, PPK/S
    Support the right - www.vcdl.org

  13. #27
    New Member Array glin134600's Avatar
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    Federal law trumps state law

    Quote Originally Posted by MNBurl View Post
    Depends on your state laws. In MN, we can carry on National Forests, State Forests, Indian lands, DNR land/rivers/lakes, Corp Dams and rec sites and state parks.

    Check your state laws first.
    Wrong. Guns are not allowed on any corps property, except when carried by a law enforcement officer or when being used by hunters during designated seasons. Application of the law is based on who owns the property, not who leases it.Federal law trumps state law.

  14. #28
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    Welcome to the forum, but did you realize you are responding to a thread that's been dormant for 4 years and 3 months? We call that "necroposting"...
    Smitty
    NRA Endowment Member

  15. #29
    New Member Array glin134600's Avatar
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    By Federal Law and COE Regulations it is illegal to carry a firearm (Unless Hunting on Land the Corps allows hunting on) on the U.S. Corps of Engineers property. This includes the waters of lakes that their dams form and the property surrounding the lake unless there is a private home on the lake. Sometimes the area is densely populated and they did not buy up all the property and existing homes when they formed the lake

  16. #30
    New Member Array glin134600's Avatar
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    Call it what you will it doesn't mean someone new like me won't come and look at the info posted here, dormant or not. It should atleast be correct don't you think? I see you point though since I never even saw page two until I replied. Apparently the replies do not get attached to the post you were replying to lol just pop up at the end. This necroposter will leave your forum enjoy

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