How many times do you fire at assailant?

This is a discussion on How many times do you fire at assailant? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In this thread: http://www.combatcarry.com/vbulletin...8856#post58856 I described a shooting I was involved in. Note that I fired twice at the gunman, one round missed him and ...

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Thread: How many times do you fire at assailant?

  1. #16
    Member Array DaveT's Avatar
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    In this thread:

    http://www.combatcarry.com/vbulletin...8856#post58856

    I described a shooting I was involved in. Note that I fired twice at the gunman, one round missed him and one round hit him dead center and exploded inside his heart.

    No one knows which round stopped him, first or second, but another officer might not be alive today if I had only fired once and that was the one that missed.

    As a shooter with vast experience in both the military and law enforcement, I always expected that if I shot at something, I would hit it..... all my training reinforced that thought. But real life situations have a dimension all their own that no training range can duplicate; I had just been shot at, bailed out of the house and saw the subject getting ready to shoot again. I am sure that adrenalin played a major role in the fact that one round did not hit him.

    I am a firm believer in training and range work that is as close to 'real life' as it can be. I fire multiple round shot groups because I train that way. I also shoot the exact same ammo on the range that I carry with daily.... Speer Gold Dots. Sure it's more expensive, but because I shoot multiple round shot groups, I know exactly what the recoil of my weapon is like and how that effects the handling between one, two and even three rounds fired in very fast succession.

    To illustrate this point: the next time you go to the range, mix your ammo as you load your magazine or revolver. By mix, I mean if you use a different range ammo just because it is cheaper, put both that and your carry load in without looking specifically to see which kind of round went in what order. Then squeeze off multiple round groups in quick order. Your target will tell the story. If you see a round or two way out of place, it will most likely be your better carry ammo because you were not as 'used to it' as you are the cheaper practice ammo.

    Just something to think about, and I fully realize that other opinions may differ, as opinions are often based on personal experience.

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  3. #17
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    Until the assailant is no longer able to assail.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Dave T has some points , personaly ( mostly due to his disjointed post i feel he has " seen the elephant " if you have its hard to do a summation of what happened , one thing stands out to me personaly is the theme if i am/was a great shot , and under stress i dont know where i shot ( paraphrased ) folks , thats reality you cannot train under the stress of a gunfight , you can stress yourself in training and that will help you survive if you eaver have the RL need , hell i cant articulate any better than him , but thats life i guess

  5. #19
    Member Array old4x4's Avatar
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    Until the gun is empty. Do not reload. When I was foolish enough to live in MA, the guy who gave my course for my handgun permit told us that. It made sense. He said in court, it'll show a high amount of stress (panic) to just keep pulling the trigger until the gun is empty and may help in a self defense situation. If you reload, it may show premeditation to some extent. Just my .02

  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bud White
    Fire untill the threat stops .. be it 1-40 some rounds
    Bud has the answer to the 64 thousand dollar question. I'm with him.


    When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
    And the women come out to cut up what remains,
    Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
    And go to your God like a soldier.

    Rudyard Kipling


    Terry

  7. #21
    Senior Member Array older gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Crunch
    Bud has the answer to the 64 thousand dollar question. I'm with him.
    +1, this makes the most sense to me.

  8. #22
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    Like many have already stated, I'd shoot until the threat ceasing being a threat.

    Which reminds me of a story an instructor I had at the Middle East Orientation Course at the USAF Special Operations School at Ft Walton Beach, FL once said: the instructor explained to all of us that he once shot a snake eight times with a P38 9mm many years back. The instructor prefaced the story by saying he hated snakes like nothing else in the world. Well, the instructor's, then, young son came up to him and asked why he shoot the snake eight times. The response was because that was all the ammo the gun had.

    Today reflecting on that story, had that instructor had an FN Five-seveN, then the snake would have been shot at with 21 rounds with no hesistation.
    USAF: Loving Our Obscene Amenities Since 1947

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    I'm going to pick ya'lls brain just a little bit here.

    We can all tell a story or a recollection of events secondhand or first hand from a fairly credible source of someone who took a heck of a lot of firepower where it counts and kept right on going.

    This kind of scum is out there and in significant quantities, yes?

    Then why this complete and utter dependence on the firearm...? If putting four or five rounds of whatever caliber you choose into someone's heart, neck, and face doesn't get the job done, why are you continuing this train of thought?

    Your goal is not to kill them and make sure they eventually die of the bleeding. That's not legal and it's not moral either. Your goal is to stop them ASAP and save yourself or someone else. That's quite appropriate and rational I would think.

    I won't even dare to try to prescribe a list of universal tactics for this situation because I'm not fully qualified and I doubt anyone who was would try to catalog such a thing either, but if shooting them where it counts isn't working... why continue?

    The gun is but a tool, the man is the weapon.

    Besides, Tueller drill anyone? I highly doubt that in most situations us civilians might face, there'd be enough time to shoot 4+ times.

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky
    double tap, assess , repeat as needed.
    This is my opinion as well. After the first pair if more is necessary then I do the Mozambique But I will be firing a pair of shots to begin the festivities.
    Heroes are people who do what has to be done, when it has to be done, regardless of the consequences

    "I like when the enemy shoots at me; then I know where the ******** are and can kill them."
    ~George Patton

    DE OPPRESSO LIBER

  11. #25
    Senior Member Array gregarat's Avatar
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    If its one person, there is no such thing as overkill. Otherwise, I shoot (center mass, if a head comes easy I will take it) until they stop coming at me.

  12. #26
    Senior Member Array rfurtkamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euclidean
    Then why this complete and utter dependence on the firearm...? If putting four or five rounds of whatever caliber you choose into someone's heart, neck, and face doesn't get the job done, why are you continuing this train of thought?
    Because at self-defense ranges and timing, I'm not going to have the luxury to stop and yell clear between my shots and check the target for damage.

    If it's come to that point, I've faced one option, and that option, as poor as it may be, is to fire as long as the threat continues to persist in my general direction or that of my companions.

    Unfortunately, I carry less than fifteen seconds of ammunition.

    Besides, Tueller drill anyone? I highly doubt that in most situations us civilians might face, there'd be enough time to shoot 4+ times.
    Tueller makes one assumption I don't necessarily agree with: that your assailant will continue coming at you. The last idiot I had to contend with played "run and provoke" within the Tueller distance several times. I had the luxury of having the weapon out and ready, but my personal comfort zone in that instance is probably half of Tueller. It's presented as soon as viable threat occurs, depending on how fast they're moving and the situation at hand.

    I can fire accurately at a single B27 as fast as I can pull the trigger at sub-Tueller distances. My most recent timed event put me at 2.8 from low ready to slide lock, 17+1 out of my Sig 226. I've met guys far faster. One local can drop a Glock 17 and shave almost a half second off me.

    In that timeframe, I'll be honest - I'm going to shoot until I can assess the ceasing of the threat - probably as I reload.

    Most folks who practice regularly or do some sort of competition can easily pull a quad-tap in the less than 1.5 sec range. Unfortunately, I don't expect a bad guy to drop the fight that fast, but I'm going to be as persuasive as humanly possible.
    Driver carries less than $45 worth of remorse.

  13. #27
    Member Array soflasmg's Avatar
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    Training is the warm blanky the mind snuggles up to when things get too freaky to reason.

    Cultivate your blanky. It will at least give you a framework to deviate from.
    The Marshmallowist

  14. #28
    Member Array grnzbra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old4x4
    Until the gun is empty. Do not reload. When I was foolish enough to live in MA, the guy who gave my course for my handgun permit told us that. It made sense. He said in court, it'll show a high amount of stress (panic) to just keep pulling the trigger until the gun is empty and may help in a self defense situation. If you reload, it may show premeditation to some extent. Just my .02
    Perhaps taking a course might show premeditation (as could getting a CCW in the first place)

    I don't think that you would want to go to court claiming that you shot the guy while in panic mode. You will need to go into court and show that the guy had the ability and opportunity to kill you and that he was behaving in a way that would cause a reasonable person to believe that he bloody well intended to kill you...now. It seems that your credibility in those areas would be seriously compromized if you were also claiming that you were in panic mode.

    Of course, the guy was from MA, so he may have been giving you some "mood of the court" information for MA.

    Shooting until the threat stops (without any attempt to determine results) could end up with you having an empty gun and him having 18 or 19 chunks of lead imbedded in his soft body armor as well as a loaded gun. (Or 5 or 6 chunks of lead in his vest and 14 or 15 chunks of lead in bystanders) Sounds like that would really scream "panic mode".

    Reloading does not show premeditation; it shows training. Your lawyer should be able to easily show the difference between premeditation and preparation. Seems to me that any training course of fire should always include finishing with a reload for just that reason.
    There's a reason The Sopranos is set in New Jersey.
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  15. #29
    VIP Member Array CLASS3NH's Avatar
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    Three rounds max should probably end it all.....(2 to the CM and 1 to the cranium) Hopefully only one round fired will end it all, but I've decided I'll cross that path with it comes.
    Why Waltz when you can Rock-N-Roll

  16. #30
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    I practice for 2 amidships (just about collarbone level) and MOVE...then keep shooting till all motion is ceased. I can't for sure say what I would do in a real situation...hopefully heightened senses, good shooting, and a little luck will keep me alive.
    noli nothis permittere te terere...

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