How many times do you fire at assailant? - Page 3

How many times do you fire at assailant?

This is a discussion on How many times do you fire at assailant? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This is something that I have thought about a lot since I got my CCW. We have all read several articles where people have fired ...

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Thread: How many times do you fire at assailant?

  1. #31
    Member Array Dingle1911's Avatar
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    This is something that I have thought about a lot since I got my CCW. We have all read several articles where people have fired until they were empty. In most of the training I do each BG gets two shots. But I agree with those that said they would fire as long as the threat is moving in their general direction.

    So my answer is somewhere between 2 and 8 (the capacity of my carry gun).


  2. #32
    New Member Array MaterDei's Avatar
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    Until he/she is no longer a threat is what I teach my wife, kids and loved ones. It is also what I plan on saying should I ever have to be unfortunate enough to testify vis a vie my actions.

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euclidean
    Then why this complete and utter dependence on the firearm...? If putting four or five rounds of whatever caliber you choose into someone's heart, neck, and face doesn't get the job done, why are you continuing this train of thought?
    Euc, check out Paul Castle's CAR site (Central Axis Re-lock). An interesting concept, overall, but of particular interest is the vid-clip, where he experiences a failure he cannot clear- he immediately uses his jammed pistol to hammer the head of the target. The idea is to agressively repel the assault until it ceases. In the suituations discussed, you have a weapon in hand, the BG is within striking distance of you. Any transition that does not involve continued violence leaves you exposed. Therefore, logically, you continue using the force in hand, until proximity/system failure dictates you go to blunt force/hand-to-hand/etc.. If the BG turns and runs after you fire two shots, 1) you aren't firing fast enough, and 2) you don't have to worry about escalation/transition of force. Honestly, most shootings are non-fatal, and both parties try to disengage as rapidly as possible (LE and Bangers alike), but if you train "to evaluate efficacy of fire", you are likely to be in league with the NYPD officers, found with saved, empty, brass in their pockets.

    http://www.sabretactical.com/

  4. #34
    Member Array the-fly's Avatar
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    as many as it takes for the BG to go horizontal. My carry gun is a glock 26 with 11+1, so i practice firing 4-6 shots pretty quick into the com.
    Driver carries less then $20 of remorse.

  5. #35
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Euclidean
    I've already decided this one.

    Twice, preferably in a controlled pair. Then worry about it. If they're still up and the head presents itself as a target, time for the last third of the failure drill.

    This is assuming a simplistic single adversary scenario.
    I'm with you. A controlled pair and then the failure to stop drill. That's for a single BG. For multiples, got to take them in a tactical manner (tossup between closest visible and how armed) inasmuch that nobody gets "seconds" until everybody else has "firsts."
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  6. #36
    Member Array d2thomas's Avatar
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    until he dies.

    hahahaha ok ok, I know it's not that simple. I never really had a solid idea in my mind until I read some ideas on this thread, so now I think I have a good idea.
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  7. #37
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfurtkamp
    I can fire accurately at a single B27 as fast as I can pull the trigger at sub-Tueller distances. My most recent timed event put me at 2.8 from low ready to slide lock, 17+1 out of my Sig 226. I've met guys far faster. One local can drop a Glock 17 and shave almost a half second off me.

    In that timeframe, I'll be honest - I'm going to shoot until I can assess the ceasing of the threat - probably as I reload.

    Most folks who practice regularly or do some sort of competition can easily pull a quad-tap in the less than 1.5 sec range. Unfortunately, I don't expect a bad guy to drop the fight that fast, but I'm going to be as persuasive as humanly possible.
    That's a good response, but didn't we have that post where they timed an old man with a bad leg crossed the 21 feet in about 2.2 seconds?

    Considering you have to drop your groceries on the ground, draw, align your muzzle (I assume we're not going to be using sights at this range), and fire, and not just fire fire fire fire, I still think 3-4 shots is realistic for real world conditions.

    Of course, this brings up the point we can't really say what could happen. Playing with a timer, I know I can go from low ready and land a string of 5 shots on the same silhouette target pretty darn quick, so if we already have our weapon indexed, I can see firing 6 or more rounds being possible.

    Bah, it's all idle speculation, but thought provoking nonetheless.

    And just to poke some more holes in my own argument, for someone like say my mother, continuing to shoot is probably the best thing they could do.

    Rob72 that's one of about 10,000 things I need to do on my list now. That sounds like the right idea to me... keep the force ongoing.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Array rfurtkamp's Avatar
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    That's a good response, but didn't we have that post where they timed an old man with a bad leg crossed the 21 feet in about 2.2 seconds?
    It'll happen. I can't plan to be superman. All I can do is to train to shoot or don't shoot depending on my choice (rather than by instinct), which has worked thusfar in the world, and hit what I'm intending to shoot.

    Considering you have to drop your groceries on the ground, draw, align your muzzle (I assume we're not going to be using sights at this range), and fire, and not just fire fire fire fire, I still think 3-4 shots is realistic for real world conditions.
    I get looked at funny, but I'll take extra trips to have the one hand open if necessary - or do more shopping twice a week instead of once.

    Couple that with knowing who's there in the immediate vicinity and I'm generally good to go.
    Driver carries less than $45 worth of remorse.

  9. #39
    Member Array KevinInstructor's Avatar
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    The only constant in war, combat and civilian attacks is change so as others before have said, respond to the threat until they are either out of here or are incapacitated to the point they are no longer a threat.
    Stay Safe,
    Kevin

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  10. #40
    Member Array spacemanspiff's Avatar
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    i'm going to shut my eyes and pull the trigger until it dont go bang no more. dont worry, in my world i have the 'friendly fire' setting turned to 'off''.

  11. #41
    Ex Member Array F350's Avatar
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    I know a cop that was involved in a shooting, he swears he only fired 2 shots.....but his revolver was empty afterwards and witnesses said he continued "dry firing" for a couple seconds. When TSHTF, the adrenalin hits the system and all that great planning we have done goes out the window; along with peripheral vision, fine motor control and a regular heart beat. I would hope to do double taps on multiple attackers (why I only carry guns that hold more than 12 rounds) then reassess, a single perp probably gets a Mozambique. I use to ride on patrol with a buddy that was a sheriff’s deputy; I could not remember details of what happened after the first "situation" we were in, after #3 I stayed in pretty good control of myself. It is like “buck fever”, after 39 years of deer hunting I am still capable of screwing up under it’s effect.

  12. #42
    Member Array ninpo's Avatar
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    Good on ya,Euclidean. That's how we were trained overseas. Controlled double tap, if opponent still capable. A well placed head shot. Leave no capable opponents behind you.
    "Stay Alert, Stay Alive"

  13. #43
    Member Array pierced456's Avatar
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    I have to disagree with this whole "Shoot them to the ground" notion somewhat.
    You should shoot till there is no longer a threat. If there still standing they can harm you. Never shoot to kill, never shoot to wound. you always shoot to stop the threat. If you shoot twice then pause to evaluate, in that pause they can be on you or return fire. Shoot as quickly as you can accurately. Stop when there is no longer a threat, when they go down.
    Nothing begins, and nothing ends, That is not paid with moan; For we are born in others pain And perish in our own.

  14. #44
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    From cop school:

    "Shoot to stop the threat. How do you know the threat is stopped? If the threat is still on his feet, he is still a threat. Shoot to stop the threat. If his weapon is pointed or moving in your direction or that of another officer or person, the threat is still a threat. Shoot to stop the threat.

    "The decision of if and when the threat is stopped is one of your own perception. You have to articulate to the judge and/or jury your perception of the threat's stoppage. You cannot reasonably specify number of shots per threat for a given situation. We do not train to shoot double-taps. We do not train to shoot the Hollywood 2 to the chest and one to the head, leave that to Arnold and Bruce. We do not train you to take headshots only, although in some situations that is the only shot you can take. If there is a situation where you cannot use one of those techniques and that is all you were trained on, you will be at a tactical disadvantage and we will not tolerate that on the street.

    "We train you to bring speed and power. Don't mess around with fancy shooting techniques. There is no place for that when lives are on the line. If you use deadly force, stop the threat and stop it quick. Take your time and the threat will take lives. We train you to fire at a threat until you are certain the threat is stopped. We train you to stop the threat. We train you to rely on your training. We don't kill people. We stop threats. If you can't live with the possibility of taking a human life, police work is not for you and you better get out now. Welding pays well."

    I rely on my training. To each his own.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  15. #45
    Senior Member Array BlueLion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acparmed
    This is my opinion as well. After the first pair if more is necessary then I do the Mozambique But I will be firing a pair of shots to begin the festivities.
    I am with ACP here and Euc. I to will fire in pairs and examine the area and see what the outcome is. Then, if the perp is still coming I will make my next shot if possible a head shot if possible. No one really know's how you will react under this type of environment, to those who have been in this type of environment you will definitely click on and react, but then your training and past experience will then also take over.
    Listen, Think and React.....Nuff Said.....

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