There are permit holders, and then there are carriers?
This is a discussion on There are permit holders, and then there are carriers? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Well, being the rather outgoing person I am most of the time, I've started sort of feeling the air or testing the waters with acquaintances, ...
September 22nd, 2008 01:23 AM
There are permit holders, and then there are carriers?
Well, being the rather outgoing person I am most of the time, I've started sort of feeling the air or testing the waters with acquaintances, and strangers about concealed carry, our state (Arkansas), and if they carry on them. Results sort of surprised me out of my three most recent inquiries.
First is a long known acquaintance......the farrier who trims our mini-horse's hooves every six weeks or so. We always talk some about firearms, and he got himself a Glock last year sometime. He and I have been to the range once together to shoot up about 600 rounds of 40S&W through our Glocks. I asked him flat out one day if he carried on him. No, he said, I keep it in the truck. When he said he didn't know where or how to carry one on himself, I lifted my shirt to show him the G19 shrouded in kydex. He was surprised. I tried to send him home with a couple of my holsters to try, but he declined.
Next up are two gentlemen I have met at the local shooting range. Both have permits, and one says he keeps it in vehicle and doesn't body carry, the other one when asked if he carried politely said he did have a permit and that was that.
While I know that everyone is unique and makes their own decisions, I just can't quite figure out how to ask the question 'if you don't carry, then why did you get your permit?' tactfully. I just don't understand. Our state requires a day long course, and some expense as well. Granted a lot of these ol' boys have been carrying in vehicle for a long time and even before CC was born here. I had used the 'journey law' myself before and never ended up in the wrong.
So...does anyone think that some folks get a carry permit just to remain on the right side of the law while doing what they've been used to all this time? Or do some not fully realize this means you can carry concealed with you/on you (most places)? I would ask one of those guys outright, but that would seem too invasive even for me.
Last edited by JD; September 22nd, 2008 at 08:22 AM.
Reason: Spaced out text
September 22nd, 2008 01:23 AM
September 22nd, 2008 02:04 AM
I know few individuals who talk about guns who actually carry them on their person. I too, Ram Rod, am surprised at how many individuals I know that have guns, but either keep them at home, in their cars, or don't have the CCW permit to carry them.
I don't get it...maybe...just maybe, out of the multi-millions of pro-gunners out there...few really believe in being personally armed at all times.
Well, I'm not responsible for their SD...just me and my family.
Many people won't wake up until the SHTF...
Stay armed...24/7...stay safe!
"That I cannot do."
"Give this to, uh, Clemenza. I want reliable people, people who aren't going to be carried away. After all we're not murderers in spite of what this undertaker thinks."
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
September 22nd, 2008 02:11 AM
I had a permit for 10 years before I started carrying. I just never had the correct mindset. When my son started getting interested in the military, he and I attended some shooting classes together. Even being around the instructors and seeing them carry, it still took me almost 6 more months to start to develop the right mindset. And then when I did start carrying, I carried with an empty chamber. That lasted about 2 weeks. Now, mostly thanks to this forum, I have a much better mindset and almost feel naked if I don't have a gun on me.
Preparing for the Zombie Apocalypse or Rapture....whichever comes first.
September 22nd, 2008 02:24 AM
What I like are guys who will endlessly give you their opinions about which UberHandgun is the best for concealed carry, but if pressed, admit they left it back in the safe because it was too much trouble to carry.
September 22nd, 2008 07:07 AM
Unless you and I are good friends, if you ask me, depending upon our relationship, I'll either tell you its none of your business, or take the stance I did when I was in charge of a missile system onboard naval vessels - I can neither confirm nor deny the presence of nuclear weapons on board this vessel."
I just don't think it's a wise idea to advertise the fact. I teach 4-H shooting sports in Ohio. I'd hazard a guess that not one of my 4-H kids in my club or any of the kids I work with realizes that I have a CCW. Nor do their parents. I just don't think it's a good policy to let folks know if and when I choose to carry. If I advertise to the good guys, an observant BG will most likely learn my habits. And one thing you can say about BG's is that they ARE observant. Quite honestly, I really don't want you or anyone else to know if I'm armed or not. And believe me, it's nothing personal unless you are a BG about to threaten me or mine.
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"
September 22nd, 2008 07:15 AM
I think that a lot get a permit with the best of intentions, but then discover that rather than being cool, it's somewhat of an inconvenience to actually carry. They'll break down and carry when they perceive a need, but don't on a daily basis. As a result, they never really get comfortable.
Honestly though, those are likely many of the same folks that don't spend much time developing the skills necessary to be safe and effective with their weapons in the first place, so I'm not sure it's necessarily a bad thing........
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
September 22nd, 2008 08:29 AM
Since getting our permits (my wife and I), I have carried every day - starting literally within minutes of opening the piece of mail that had my permit. My wife got hers knowing that she wouldn't be carrying most of the time, as she works for a University. While it is legal for her to carry there, she can still get fired for doing so as it is against University policy for students & employees to carry.
She'll be getting a holster, probably within the next couple of weeks, so that she can carry when walking the dog, or going out-and-about (i.e. not going to work), but the real deciding factor for her to get a permit was simply so that it would be legal for me to leave my gun in the car with her should I ever have to disarm to enter a building. That would be pretty rare here in MN, but it could happen (a post office, for example).
Another reason to get her permit, knowing that she wouldn't carry much, is simply to add another number to the statistics showing how many people carry in MN. She is 110% behind the principle of carrying and knows that increasing that statistic by 1 is probably the most effective way she has for influencing any policy decisions made by our legislators, no matter how indirect that influence may be.
Obviously, she doesn't fall into the category of a few of the people who have already been mentioned here (i.e. she will be carrying when she can, just not most of the time), but she still won't be carrying much. That's our story - make of it what you will...
"It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged
September 22nd, 2008 09:22 AM
Why? Quite honestly I do not carry 100% of the time because I do not see the boogyman in every corner or hidden in the shadows. Seriously, I can understand why someone who carries all the time wants to and should as it is a right and they have jumped through the legal hoops to be able to do so.
I know it is not a popular position to take but at times there seems to be a little to much thought into how to defeat the "bad guy" to the point of being mentally unhealthy. This is not to say that one should not be prepared, but just this weekend there was a thread on whether or not it would be cool to make a wallet into a flash-bang so you can blind a would be mugger. I was glad to see some cooler heads prevail on that one.
I mainly got my permit for a couple of reasons.
1. Its a right, and even though I would be considered a liberal to most on this site I consider myself a moderate who has always enjoyed firearms and believe that if you want to carry, you should be able to. Getting my permit helped the statistics in my state.
2. In my job, I often find myself out in the boonies doing field work. (I am a field biologist). This is the main time I carry. I have "stumbled" into pot patches and met some strange characters in very odd places. Its nice to know that I have a little friend on my belt.....
Reasons I don't carry all the time are:
1. Its a pain in the butt. It has been just recently that I have figured a way of carrying that is comfortable.
2. There are many places that I would have to disarm to enter (banks, university, post office, etc) and I do not like leaving a weapon in a vehicle unattended.
3. The best defense is a good offense. I do my best to not place myself in situations that are dangerous. I do not drink. I do not go out late at night on a regular basis. I do not make myself look like a "target". Thus, I am not always looking over my shoulder.
Finally, and these may be the most unpopular thoughts on the matter....
There are people that are carrying that I really do not believe that they should be for reasons based on ability. I have mentioned it before but I was almost shot in my class because an attendee was using a weapon that he had just purchased and did not know how to operate. He freely admitted that he had not shot in years. He qualified.
What this last statement has to do with your premise is this. I do not WANT all permit holders carrying all the time. IF you want your permit fine. But if you are not committed to being competent, for my own safety as an innocent bystander I would prefer that you leave your weapon locked up in your safe at the house....
September 22nd, 2008 09:33 AM
The permit (or license) is cardboard laminated between two sheets of plastic.
Not effective as a defensive tool.
Unpleasantness tends to hit the fan quickly and without prior warning, and more often than not from an unexpected quarter, giving one little time to retreat to the vehicle, unlock the containment, load, turn, present and engage.
Given the choice, I prefer to carry both the laminated cardboard slip, and the machined steel hearing aid.
"Deine Papieren bitte?" or "ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ !"
(Choose only one)
NRA Endowment Member
"I bark at no man's bid. I will never come and go, and fetch and carry, at the whistle of the great man in the White House no matter who he is." -- David Crockett
September 22nd, 2008 09:35 AM
When I first got my permit I carried sometimes, but I always had one in the car. After a while I stopped carrying on body totally. For no apparent reason I started carrying on body one day, now I won't be unarmed unless required by law.
It's not a pain in the butt with the right gear. A good holster and belt makes all the difference. I carry a 4/25 or a in 1911 every day with no issues. I can crawl under desks hooking up computers, etc with no problems.
From speaking to several LEOs I know in the area there are many many people with permits who don't carry. I'm of the opinion of you lave the house without your weapon, you've decided to be a victim that day.
I DO agree with Andrew, without additional training, at least here in TN, permit holders know little more than how to put 48 holes in a piece of paper. Nothing about carrying, mindset, etc is ALLOWED in the HCP classes.
"If I was an extremist, our founding fathers would all be extremists," he said. "Without them, we wouldn't have our independence. We'd be a disarmed British system of feudal subjectivity."
September 22nd, 2008 10:17 AM
For joemess: Morning. I saw the SC address and just wanted to make note that you can carry in banks in SC. I have only seen one bank with a sign and it was not a valid sign. Sometimes there is confusion on the difference between federal property and federally insured which banks are and you can legally carry.
As for the newbie, do not restrict the incompetence to them. A regular shooter in my area who practices a lot and is very accurate has the habit of turning toward you with a loaded gun to ask a question.
Registration: A prelude to Confiscation and Anarchy.
September 22nd, 2008 10:23 AM
Originally Posted by SCfromNY
I agree about the sign.... But If I see a "no firearms sign" with the silhouette and slash plus the the words "no firearms"...I am going to respect it as it was mentioned in another thread, I really do not want to be the test case. Typically this is not an issue as I am a drive through user.
September 22nd, 2008 10:53 AM
Self protection is a mind set. The permit allows you more options legally.
You need to be responsible for yourself regardless of the situation.
Pay your money - make your choice - It's up the the individual to decide what their safety is worth.
"Being PARANOID is just plain smart thinking when they are really out to get you!"
September 22nd, 2008 11:30 AM
I live in California and have had a permit for over 20+ years. Ever since the Mcdonald's shooting near San Diego I carry 100% of the time. I even carry in church,known only to me,my wife and the Lord. I even carry extra ammo. Extra ammo to me is like a spare tire in your car. Never know when you will need it. I respect,but don't agree with the person that only carries on a casual basis. To carry all the time takes effort and mind set. If you don't have them,then do your fellow man a favor and don't carry. Above all,if you carry,go to the range and practice,practice.
September 22nd, 2008 01:04 PM
I tell all my friends that if they can legally do so they should get their CPL. It doesn't mean that they have to carry all the time, but it does mean that if they feel a need to carry they can and be legal. I believe that no one should carry untill they feel comfortable operating their firearm. Once someone has put forth money to get their permit, they have more of a reason to become familiar with firearms, some become avid shooters and collectors of all kinds of firearms. Some people after recieving their permit even become staunch 2nd amendment supporters.
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