September 23rd, 2008 09:49 PM
Safety of the family
I believe that a general consensus here is that shopping malls, restaurants, and many other places are unsafe enough so that some/many will not go there if required to be unarmed. Statements such as, “The safety of my family is more important than ….” “ I have a great responsibility to protect my wife and family.” "I am responsible for my safety, and won't go..."
Without arguing that point I wonder whether a married man would let his wife or daughters, who did not CCW, go to a mall without him for protection? Assuming the ladies would go shopping for shoes (boy does my wife love shoes), dresses, jewelry, and just shopping in general, would you attempt to accompany them as often as possible, and even attempt to dissuade them from going without you?
I am curious as to what degree of sacrifice of time a man would be willing to make so that his wife, daughters, or mother could shop safely at the local mall?
I realize that many here are single, and do not have to consider a wife at the present time. But many have a mother who lives in the same town, and they love her enough to make sure she is as safe as they want to be.
Those who are married want the wife and children to be as safe as themselves. If that is so then I would not let my wife go shopping alone at the mall, grocery stores, hair salons, or anywhere I would not be willing to go unarmed to the degree I was able to influence her/them.
Just a thought and I often wonder how dedicated to personal safety we really are, and especially if it requires us to accompany others in the immediate family who do not carry, and go to places that we find boring?
Please do not make a point that you will make sure they get a CCW because some will not. In the same vein don’t argue how much authority you do or do not have in the family. I just want to know how dedicated to the safety of the family you really are.
Thanks, and best to all.
September 23rd, 2008 10:06 PM
No way I can protect and cover 100% of the day...but I can educate and prepare for them to be vigilant, and make the right choices (going to the mall or even Wally world late at night, by oneself is not a good idea). Locked car doors, checking six, keeping one's head on a swivel...looking for the threat are all areas (and many more) to constantly communicate and emphasize.
September 23rd, 2008 10:13 PM
Originally Posted by bandit383
But what I want to know is do you go with them whenever reasonably possible no matter where they are going?
If being vigilant and the other things you mentioned are enough for their safety then you could also do them and remain safe without carrying. Is that really enough to keep them as safe as when you are along?
If not then why not go with them instead of watching a football game or whatever else you like to do? If it were to a hair salon you could wait in the car and watch the door and keep them safe between the salon and the car. Is not their safety more important that what you would like to do when not at work?
September 23rd, 2008 10:25 PM
Sometimes I find some solace in going with the wife and daughter clothes shopping for school, or whatever reason. It's sort of a rather peaceful time of sorts for me compared to what I'm used to. Maybe a little slower paced actually since I'm usually high speed/low drag. I worry about them both when they are off on their own for sure, but they do a lot of things on their own when I am away or at work, and I cannot be there for them always. My wife pretty much knows how things work, and some times the best I can do is give advice before their outing, and pray the dark side of humanity will not befall them. I do enjoy the whole family outings though, and they are extra special because I know they are secure with me. Restaurants? I'm all game for the buffet! I cherish the times I'm able to be with them wherever we are going. I'm the main decision maker, and quite frankly, look for a break every now and then, and more than willing to play chauffeur and protector no matter what the cost in boredom. I've found some really good deals, and some nice bargains on shirts and things, and I like to see them enjoy themselves. My wife will more than likely never carry anything stronger than pepper spray. We've been down that road before, (she even tried my G27 against my advice), and I respect her decision not to, even though it may lie within her trusting herself with the responsibilities. I'll never look at this as extra baggage, and if there's something to be done, they'd rather I go with them, and I'd rather be with them, but it's not possible all of the time. In short, I'm willing to do whatever it takes to be there with them no matter what. They don't know the things I do, and I hope they never find out what I know. I'll be there whenever possible.
September 23rd, 2008 10:27 PM
Hi Jerry...to answer your questions...first, they like to do things on their own as I. Girl thing. I am not paranoid to the extent that as soon as I step outside, I am going to be hit by lightning.
Originally Posted by JerryM
Second...define safe. I always love when someone uses that word because it seems to be a euphanism people use for all things what not to do...because it could be unsafe. Safety is a mental state, not a buzz word.
If I am in a locale that leads me to believe they need 24 hr coverage...I need to move...because the law of averages will catch up to us.
Defending my family goes far beyond just carrying a weapon and thinking they and myself are safe because I do so (there's that word again).
Great question and discussion.
September 23rd, 2008 11:26 PM
The question is based on a false premise - or an entirely different, and much, much broader definition of the word "safe" than I am willing to consider.
If a place isn't safe enough to go to unarmed, then it isn't safe enough to go to, period. I've only been carrying a short time, and prior to receiving my permit, I never once refused to go somewhere because I was unarmed. And now that I do have my permit, I don't carry to be able to make "unsafe" places into "safe" ones, but rather to give myself a wider range of options should trouble decide to find me wherever I am.
As far as "to what degree of sacrifice of time a man would be willing to make so that his wife, daughters, or mother could shop safely at the local mall?" Assuming only one of the adults in the family has a permit and is willing to carry (I refuse to accept the notion that it is solely "the man's responsibility"...), if that adult believes that the "safety" of their family is enhanced by their armed presence wherever they go, can it really be considered a "sacrifice" of their time to act on that belief? I'd argue it isn't a sacrifice, but rather a choice. Again, you could have a much broader definition of sacrifice in mind than I do, but the common usage of that term connotes the idea that the permit holder is taking time out of their day to be with their spouse &/or kids when they would rather be doing something else.
Now, I don't have any kids, but I do have a wife. Fortunately for me, she got her permit at the same time as me, and carries as often as she can (which isn't anywhere near as often as she'd like since she can't carry at work). If we did have kids, or if my wife didn't carry, I would most emphatically not "sacrifice" my time simply to provide an armed escort to wherever they might want to go. Rather, I would choose to spend as much time with them as I could (armed, of course), and recognize / accept the fact that there will be plenty of times when I won't be able to be with them, and that I'll simply have to hope that no one tries to do them any harm, and/or that my wife would be able to protect herself (and for the sake of this example, our kids) to the best of her ability given whatever the situation may be.
When it comes right down to it, there is no guarantee that any of us are "safe" anywhere, including in our homes. I have to go back to where I started - I carry a gun simply to increase the number of options I have should trouble decide to find me. I am no "safer" with it than I am without it. I suspect that many will disagree with me, but I'm OK with that. I look forward to seeing some more responses.
"It is only as retaliation that force may be used and only against the man who starts its use. No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had a right to choose: his own." - John Galt, from Atlas Shrugged
September 23rd, 2008 11:44 PM
Thanks for the replies.
I am using "safe" in the context that is used when one says something like,
"The safety of me or my family is top priority so I won't go where I can't carry."
Now if you won't go there because you fear (to whatever degree) that you might be attacked or killed, why would you permit your wife or family to go there unarmed?
I am really exploring the question of how serious are you (collectively) about the point that it is too dangerous to go to certain places, public places, unarmed. I wonder if you really think there is that much danger. If so I promise I would always be with my wife when she goes to such places. Boy, would I hate to go dress shopping or for shoes or even to the grocery store. But if I really thought such places were dangerous I would sacrifice my time to be sure she was safe.
I have read threads where someone would not go to a church that would not permit carrying. What if your wife wanted to go there? Would you prohibit her or would you go with her unarmed to protect as well as possible?
Rick, I realize the girl/boy things, and that is a problem. But what are the levels of importance between those things and safety?
September 23rd, 2008 11:53 PM
Hi dang. 45,
I consider that if you wanted to watch a football game on Sat, and your wife wanted to go to the mall and see if she could find a dress would you forget the game and accompany her?
If she would be in danger, since you would not go there unarmed, why would you not go with her even if you wanted to do something else. That is a sacrifice, although not of the highest degree. I suspect you had rather do other things that go dress shopping. :) I realize if she has her CHL it is a different story.
While it might not be solely the man's responsibility, from the beginning it has always been the man who is primarily responsible for the safety of his family.
The question causes some squirming as I see it. That is OK, I am just curious about the views of others here.
I am not wanting to argue semantics as to meaning of words, but instead I think all know what I am getting at, and whether one calls giving up his Sat a choice or a sacrifice the result is the same. Will you give it up or not?
I consider that if there is a reasonable probability of her getting attacked then that place is not safe. Safe means freedom from attack or even serious harassment in this instance.
Is that too broad? If so then define "safe" as you see it.
September 24th, 2008 01:24 AM
I would agree with some of the others.. I carry 100 precent of the time when I'm not at work. Carrying has not changed the places that I go. If its not safe to go there with out a gun I don't go. I carry because Yes danger can strike everywhere and I would like to be rest as much as I can. I'd rather be with than with out.
I have though of similar things about places. In July I went to Tampa FL for vacation. I went to a movie with some family members that live there. To my surprise they had a local police officer or six:)there and to them it was normal to have 5 police officers on duty there on a friday night.. My thought was whos crazy enough to go to this theater if they need 5 leos there. People still go to places and nothing is going to stop them.. I just want to be prepared as much as I can.. But we can't not have life go on because of BG's
You might be weak but God is Strong!
September 24th, 2008 03:38 AM
My wife has not decided to carry, or at least not yet. Since I can't be with her all of the time, I've given her the best that could so that he can defend herself should it be needed. She's had a stun gun and pepper spray for several years, but I haven't been thrilled with the need to allow someone to get that close. For Christmas, I gave her a Taser C2, so that she at least has a 15 ft range to defend herself before a BG got too close. If she ever decides to carry, she can use my Glock 26 (she's shot it and liked it).
September 24th, 2008 05:09 AM
Lemme start off by saying that if my wife and daughters (read: daddy outnumbered by estrogen 3:1) wanted to go to the mall without me, have a good time and pay attention to what's around you!
If I was worried to the point of not letting them go without me then there's probley something going on I (or the family) don't need to be involved with.
I'd be foolish to think I can protect mine 24/7. I do what I can, teach what I know, and hope all will be alright.
"Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008
(Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay
September 24th, 2008 07:51 AM
We have been married for 42 years. I am retired, so I have the spare time to pretty much be available 24/7. Other than an occasional run to the little market (local grocery store) my wife is pretty much with me all the time. I EDC and so we are armed whenever possible. Exceptions are normal and include Chili's (favorite place to eat, but serves alcohol) and certain malls that are posted (but they do have armed security.) When I drill with Tennessee State Guard (can't have gun on me or in car on military base, post 9/11 regs)I leave her with one of her sisters and gun is left at their house. .
We don't do this out of fear, it's just that besides being married we are buddies and don't like being apart.
Retired Marine, Retired School Teacher, Independent voter, Goldwater Conservative.
September 24th, 2008 08:28 AM
""If a place isn't safe enough to go to unarmed, then it isn't safe enough to go to, period. I've only been carrying a short time, and prior to receiving my permit, I never once refused to go somewhere because I was unarmed. And now that I do have my permit, I don't carry to be able to make "unsafe" places into "safe" ones, but rather to give myself a wider range of options should trouble decide to find me wherever I am.""
You are absolutely spot on. I have a good friend who teaches self defense. Not Tai Kwon Do or anything like that, but just stuff that would make a large man cry like a baby. My daughter has taken his basic and advanced class (he's a cop at the local university). She carries a hat pin in the lapel of her blouse, and pepper spray and knows how to use it.
My wife, on the other hand, is completely non-violent. She does not like guns, but thank goodness, understands my rationale for having guns in the house and my rationale for going armed when I choose to do so. I fear for her more so than my daughter. However, if she's not with me, she's with my daughter. And they both know the wisdom of parking in a well lighted spot, looking under the car before opening the doors, looking in the back seat, locking the doors as soon as they are in the car, and leaving the lot as soon as possible. My wife also carries a police whistle in her pocket - more a security blanket than anything else. We also go to well populated malls in the "better" parts of town. But then, that's not hard to do in Toledo, Ohio.
I'm convinced that we can't make our environment 100% safe, but we can make it safe enough so that the BG picks on someone else. I hate to say it, but better someone else than my family. But then, I'm kind of a Darwinist and believe in survival of the fittest.
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"
September 24th, 2008 01:02 PM
My wife will NOT go to the mall without me. And yes sometimes I'd rather stay home or go fishing or do ANYTHING besides shopping, I always go with her. She knows I'm packing and that makes her feel safe. And I don't have to sit at home and be worried about her...... Still wish I could convince her to get her license though..
September 24th, 2008 01:39 PM
That is her choice. She doesn't take the little one when she goes alone, he will stay with me. She knows I want her to get her permit, but has yet to do it. Hopefully in Nov. she will be taking the class. If I don't feel like going shopping or wherever and she wants to go, well then she goes.
Most of the time we are together. She works for me, we take the little one to school together most days, he comes to the office after school, we usually go grocery shopping together, so about 90% of the time we are together, except when the little one is in school.
This does have one advantage. When I tell her I am heading to deer camp or someplace, she says, have fun.
Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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