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The dishonest way...

5K views 56 replies 32 participants last post by  LongRider 
#1 ·
So i've been trying to get my girlfriend of 2 years to to take her personal security seriously, to which i have been everything short of outright laughed at. Her college has had a rash of serial rapes and brazen sexual assaults and shes still playing the "it isn't going to happen to me" game. :mad:

So she calls me up crying today because she found a video that shocked and disturbed her so badly that suddenly, she really wants to get into self defense.

Here's the kicker: The video (Link: Columbine Security Footage) is fake. I've seen it before and while i think its a pretty accurate representation of how things went there, I can't bring myself to tell her its a fake. Shes FINALLY starting to take things seriously and I don't want to upset the apple cart.

That said, what do you think of using a video like this as a tool to visually demonstrate to someone the need for a CCW? What about in general, outside of this particular situation? Bear in mind that unless you represent this as actual footage, it looses part of its impact..

Penny for your thoughts...
 
#3 ·
#4 ·
There is no substitute for honesty regardless of how she might take it.
I have taught my children that someone or something can take away everything you have except your integrity. You have to give that up if you lose it.

If your argument is good it will pass on its own withoug dishonesty.

Regards,
Jerry
 
#12 ·
Honesty

There is no substitute for honesty regardless of how she might take it.
I have taught my children that someone or something can take away everything you have except your integrity. You have to give that up if you lose it.

If your argument is good it will pass on its own withoug dishonesty.
That says it all. If "you" are trying to motivate a person to do almost anything predicated on dishonesty, ultimately it's doomed to failure. Maybe not now, but eventually. I do a lot of work with kids through 4-H, 4-H Shooting Sports, High School Leadership, Youth Group and so on - probably 1000 hours or more of volunteer work per year. And one theme I try to stress is honesty. Makes it hard when the role models kids see treat honesty as a convenience rather than a basic value.

My somewhat unsolicited advice is to be completely honest about the video. But reinforce your concern at the same time. I've been going through the same thing with my wife and have come to the conclusion that it is I who will have to protect her. But there are no false pretenses there, and no false sense of security. If she is going to get involved in self defense, let it because SHE wants to, not because she feels YOU want her to.

FWIW, my 2 centavos (the majority of which the government will take and give to someone else :rant:
 
#5 ·
Fake is right in the sense it's not actual footage but what's in the video did happen. So I'd say no harm to let it be. :wink:
 
#6 ·
The video looked pretty realistic to me. Just taking your word that it is fake, what kind of wacko would make such a video? At least some good has come from it.

If that is what it looks like when it is played out, think of the horror of it in real life.

You're in a tough spot. Obviously, not telling her is getting to the desired end, regardless of the means. The old utilitarian theory of ethics; for the greater good. BUT, she should know IMO. Let her read where it is said that it is fake, so she can see for herself, and in the process, "stumble" upon more actual shootings.
 
#7 ·
I would say theres no harm done and it's making her safer. Not to side track, but adding to Ram Rods post, when I went to that link I also saw two videos in the side bar, one is 911 without gun in home invasion, and the second is 911 caller WITH gun in home invasion, they are 911 recordings of the crimes, and obviously the call WITH gun turns out better for the victim. She would listen to those also.
 
#10 ·
The Vid you are talking about was a reenactment of an actual horrific event so if that was graphic and illustrative enough to have changed her mind then so be it.
It does not really matter what changed her mind or what altered her mindset for the better.
It's really no different than watching a powerful training video.

I'd just go with the flow.
 
#11 ·
take "yes" for an answer and be glad she finally seems to have woke up and smelled the coffee.
 
#13 ·
People make decisions for all sorts of reasons. Absolute fact often takes awhile to swallow in such a way that it does any good. IMO, that's one thing that media can do: summarize the message. Of course, falsification of points, here and there, can result in propaganda that completely and utterly changes how someone will see it.

But if we spent the time correcting every factual error in every such input others get, that's all we'd be doing.

If it galls you, answer this for yourself: is the gist of the message true, in terms of the risk, the threat, the result of what happened? Are there in fact such threats as depicted in that "dishonest" portrayal? Are those basic risks real? (Forget for a moment whether each specific fact is the whole truth, or not.)

Decide accordingly.
 
#14 ·
For some, reading about a massacre is a world apart from seeing it on video(even if it's a re-creation). The events were real, so she shouldn't all of a sudden drop it if she knows the video was not authentic.
On a negative note college campuses are usually targets of low-lifes who know most effective weapons are banned from campus. Maybe point her towards SCCC, hopefully they have a chapter on her campus.
Unfortunately, women are the usual targets of violence, and many don't seem to think it'll happen to them until it's too late. They need to be carrying more then men, however, the vast majority of permits are issued to men. More women are waking up, but there's still work to be done.
 
#16 ·
She doesn't need your opinion--she's already made up her mind (just like she had before when she DIDN'T need your help)! :) If she wants your help--help her!

Ignorance is a terrible thing.
 
#20 ·
May I take this opportunity to thank you for what you're doing. If more people like you would share their stories, i think people would become much more aware of the danger around them, and hopefully much safer.

It's a great thing you are doing. Don't ever stop telling people your story. :35:
 
#21 ·
Whatever it takes! I mean, how fake can it really be? People died there and the video was enough to make your girlfriend think twice about it. So it didn't happen exactly the way it really did. Big deal!

You're concerned about your girlfriend right now. The rest of the world, other than people close to you, can kick big rocks. Why worry about other people? This is about saving the lives of your family and close friends. While we will do what we can to help others, they are on their own.
 
#22 ·
Maybe I should not be surprised in today's world, but I am. I wish there had been a survey as to how many would be dishonest to accomplish what you perceived to be a worthy purpose?

Evidently a lot of you would, but I tend to think that if you would be dishonest in this situation you would be dishonest in other things that you thought that the end justified the means. I think that is a sad commentary on this generation.

Regards,
Jerry
 
#23 ·
If it works, great...now help her get into the proper mind set and focus her on how to become armed and alert.:hand10:

Stay armed...get training...stay safe!
 
#25 ·
... wish there had been a survey as to how many would be dishonest to accomplish what you perceived to be a worthy purpose?
Not every little fact must be corrected in order for a message to be true. I'm not on this earth to make all those corrections, as I have plenty else to worry about.

Sure, if someone comes to a decision via lies and deceit that I perpetrate, I should have my integrity handed to me on a plate. But if someone reaches an understanding via interpreting reasonable threat from situations as in the OP, and those threats are basically real, then where's the infraction??

For those who would do so, do NOT generalize this to mean I will do whatever necessary if the ends are in my opinion worthwhile.

The thing of it is, it probably wouldn't make much difference in the outcome, either way. The threat is real. When someone's stalking with intent to damage others, Hades has come to visit. You either choose to deal with it, or you choose to fail to deal with it. There's no real way around that.
 
#27 ·
Not every little fact must be corrected in order for a message to be true. I'm not on this earth to make all those corrections, as I have plenty else to worry about.

Sure, if someone comes to a decision via lies and deceit that I perpetrate, I should have my integrity handed to me on a plate. But if someone reaches an understanding via interpreting reasonable threat from situations as in the OP, and those threats are basically real, then where's the infraction??

For those who would do so, do NOT generalize this to mean I will do whatever necessary if the ends are in my opinion worthwhile.
The title of this thread is "The dishonest way."
You are incorrect when you say all must not be correct to be true. It only takes one untruth for the whole to be untrue. It is like a glass of pure water that only contains 1 drop of poison. The whole glass is contaminated.

If one wants to state the threat honestly that is one thing, but if one wants to distort facts that is dishonest.

The end doesn't justify the means to a person of integrity. That is exactly what the politicians and antis do. They think that they are right and do not mind telling a lie to get it done. I recall Orville Faubus who was gov of AR in the 50s I think, who said that the first duty of a politician is to get elected. When elected then he can do as he wills.

If the way is dishonest then it is a lie. It is extremely important that people who trust us be given the whole picture or we do not deserve to be trusted.

If the video shows a likely threat then say so, but do not try to make it something that truly happened. It should stand or fall on its own. There is nothing wrong with a video that depicts a reasonably possible happening if it presented as it is. Is it OK to deceive one in order to get them to get a CHL? What would be next. I reject any such thinking that is OK in this case or anything else.

If a friend/mate/girlfriend is deceived even for a reason that one believes is a good one that person has been deceived. Does one's mate deserve deception or truth?

Where do you draw the line on deception? Is it whether or not you think the end justifies the means?

Regards,
Jerry
 
#26 ·
OK, so the video is not actual footage of what happened there. But it is a very real representation of what happened. And you can tell her that, as is usually the case, the recreation of these types of things are almost never as brutal as the actual events themselves.

Continue to support her decision to take her self defense seriously and tell her how proud of her you are.
 
#31 ·
Let's just say that embellishment may not change the basic underlying truth of the message, but it can be the same degree of falsification you're claiming invalidates the entire message. In probably every third sermon I've attended in any one of a dozen different churches (of a few faiths), such embellishments and exaggerations tormented the message enough, for me, that the message was lost. (Call it evangelical fervor, if nothing else will do.)

In my opinion, those instances I can vaguely recall altered the message sufficiently enough (due to the virulence, vitriole or outright bias indicated in portions of the commentary) to stain the message. I agree that the standard is that stark, in a holy house. We'll have to simply disagree as to whether it applies to the same literal degree elsewhere, as in reenactments.

Back to our scheduled program (the OP).
 
#34 ·
Let me be blunt...

Are you being dishonest with her to obtain sex, money or any other nefarious reason?

No?

Then just go with the flow and get her training.

You will be happier. She will be happier. Everything will be swell

When she finds out the video was a recreation, claim ignorance and be just as shocked as she is.
 
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