Not so friendly fellow CC'er encounter... - Page 5

Not so friendly fellow CC'er encounter...

This is a discussion on Not so friendly fellow CC'er encounter... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Mtbiker Well, went to chillis to pick up call-in order. Someone saw his gun, called the cops and he was arrested for ...

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Thread: Not so friendly fellow CC'er encounter...

  1. #61
    Member Array dmorris68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtbiker View Post
    Well, went to chillis to pick up call-in order. Someone saw his gun, called the cops and he was arrested for breach of peace I think. Was aquitted of ALL CHARGES and now the DPS WILL NOT let him get his permit back. Basically, he comitted no crime but is being denied a permit now.
    His permit was recently restored.

    The main issue in that case was, despite state statutes saying a permit holder can carry openly or concealed, there was some language in either the statue or permit policy regarding "mature judgment" that DPS seized upon to make case-by-case rulings on permit revocations, based solely on the perceived "breach of peace" or "incitement of panic" that carrying openly might cause. In this case, the Chili's manager was freaked out and called the cops, despite the fact that nobody else had made a scene about it. Statements from several Chili's employees indicated no concern on their part. He was arrested for BoP, and despite having his arrest and charges thrown out by a judge who ordered his permit be returned to him, the DPS refused and revoked his permit anyway, and then later revoked a temporary permit issued by his local Chief of Police who could find no reason to deny his request for a new permit. The Chief was subsequently NOT happy with DPS for revoking the temporary permit that he issued.

    Lawyers were retained, lawsuits were either filed or threatened, and finally DPS relented and restored the permit. I think I read that the "mature judgment" loophole was subsequently removed from whatever statute or guidelines where it was originally published.

    The case attracted a lot of attention and the ire of even LEO's, who felt the DPS was being arrogant in ignoring court orders and re-interpreting the state law to suit themselves and their agenda. Just another example of some LEOs/LEAs being out of touch with the fast moving state legislation on concealed carry.
    David

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  2. #62
    Member Array svinfinity45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtbiker View Post
    Well, went to chilli's to pick up call-in order. Someone saw his gun, called the cops and he was arrested for breach of peace I think. Was acquitted of ALL CHARGES and now the DPS WILL NOT let him get his permit back. Basically, he committed no crime but is being denied a permit now.
    Edit: Thanks for the summary Dmorris now I can delete my much less details explaination in this post :)


    Thats kind of what I mean though here in CT at least, there are quite a few sheeple, who freak at the sight of guns. I live in a little woodsy town and we have a turkey shoot down at the local common once a year with .22's, the first time it was held the local state police outpost got something like 30 calls I think the paper said, because of it. It was mostly out of towner's unaware of the event driving by seeing kids and adults with rifles in the open, regardless of the fact that there were banners and it was an organized function. My house is also surrounded by the local forests where hunting is aloud, here a few shots now and then but like I said I live in woodsy town.

    That story about chilli's is what I'm afraid of happening every time I'm out. It really comes down the discretion of the officer and I guess Goldman got a not so understanding one, but still I hate knowing that in my state, even though as Dmorris stated open carry is legal, there's enough sheeple that if someone catches a glint, I'm going to be seeing LEO in minutes being asked lots of stern questions.

  3. #63
    Member Array henryher's Avatar
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    Here is some food for thought on this subject. Like the beer belly guy that wears the speedo at the beach thinking he looks cool. Maybe some guys or gals carry for a long time and get so used to the way they carry that they do not notice when their bodies change and they start to print. Maybe when they first got their holsters they did not print at all. Then as time went on and their bodies began sagging, filling, pot bellying, etc... They began printing but never noticed because they were so comfortable with their guns in that position in that type holster all that time.

    On a note for the above comment. I agree and worry also about people that are so intimidated by a gun that they have a heart attack at the thought of someone having a gun near them. I worked for the FL DEP for fifteen years. We had law enforcement officers that worked criminal cases for us. The Agency decided to merge us in order to save some money. They always were housed in a different building than us. The first month became really contraversial because some of the people in my office were intimidated by the site of guns. They filed a complaint and the LEO were told to leave their weapons in their vehicles when entering the building. Several of us got together and filed our own complaints that we felt safer knowing that we had law enforcement armed in our building and demanded they begin to carry in the buildings. We prevailed and some of the complainers transferred out of the department because of it. So there are those that can take their gun phobia to an extreme.
    "Government is not reason and it is not eloquence. It is force! Like fire it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action."

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  4. #64
    Member Array svinfinity45's Avatar
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    Yea it's...well sickening to me. The politicians and certain news groups around here have really stuck it to the general um...shublic? sheeplic? (sheeple public). Even some of my own family members that live in various parts of CT will talk about guns at family event's like they are grenades with rusty pins that are only possessed by evil and should be destroyed/banned/whatever. Even though these are the same family members that know my father and I, along with his brother and daughters, all carry and my father and uncle both hunt. Any attempt at getting them to be more understanding is just countered by the repeating of misinformation they hear from the media, and any attempt to RE-inform is just met with ignorance and or resistance. It is the same for much of the shublic, not just my family. I've always considered myself a pretty persuasive person, too. Just as in any open carry state, guns would be much more accepted in small rural areas than urban ones, but CT is almost like one big urban sheeple-zone. (not YOU fellow CT CCW's) but just seems like a lot of people here even in my forest town, are very skittish. Could be because my area is more upper class and most of those "types" are usually more skittish, but regardless it still makes me heated when carrying.

  5. #65
    jfl
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    Distinguished Member Array jfl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Husker View Post
    I don't try to help anyone I don't personally know. MYOB. The right person will spot it soon enough.
    Right !!! I've given up giving advice; you'll never know how it is going to be interpreted; fights are started this way...
    The first rule of a gunfight: "Don't be there !"
    The second rule: "Bring enough gun"

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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by InspectorGadget View Post
    If it had been me I would have thanked you, corrected the problem, and then asked you what you carry.

    BTW: This is why I want Open Carry in Florida, I try to stay concealed, but if I reach for something on a high shelf, getting out of my car and checking my shirt, just general wind blowing, I do not want charges for Brandishing because a Anti Gun Paranoid sees me.
    Inspector, under Florida Law you are covered. Accidental displays are not penalized.

    790.10 Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.--If any person having or carrying any dirk, sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, or other weapon shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
    That does not mean that an uniformed or overzealous LEO may not give you a rough time, but legally you are OK.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
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  7. #67
    VIP Member Array stormbringerr's Avatar
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    a couple gf people here think you should not have said anything,but they are wrong.
    if i were printing i would be glad someone told me.
    if someone cant tell when someone is trying to help them they have a problem.
    in Texas concealed means concealed.
    this guy you talked to doesn't sound very smart, since he dressed himself and prints then gets mad when someone gives him some constructive criticism. he must have a very fragile ego indeed and not the type of person i could be around for very long at all.
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  8. #68
    Member Array HKtexas's Avatar
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    Maybe this is the subject for a different thread but if in the course of the conversation, after you saw he was carrying and you somehow became aware that this person was illegally carrying, and this is hypothetical only, would you be justified in drawing down on him. I could see where if someone came up to me at a gas station and I became aware he was carrying and I realised that he was carrying illegaly I would question his intentions.
    I mean if the guy was even more of a jerk than he was already and said "no I don't have a license, even if he did and only said so because he believed, rightly or wrongly that it was none of your busisness, would you be justified in thinking he was up to no good and drawing on him. I would think that unless you acted first you would be at the mercy of that individual. This scenario depends on a lot of hypotheticals I know, but I was wondering what the other forum mebers thought and what their reactions would be.

  9. #69
    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy View Post
    Inspector, under Florida Law you are covered. Accidental displays are not penalized.



    That does not mean that an uniformed or overzealous LEO may not give you a rough time, but legally you are OK.

    From your post, an accidental display could be penalized in FL. The law you posted includes the word careless. That could be construed as printing if the prosecutor or LEO is over-zealous, at least IMO. YMMV
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

  10. #70
    Member Array dmorris68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HKtexas View Post
    Maybe this is the subject for a different thread but if in the course of the conversation, after you saw he was carrying and you somehow became aware that this person was illegally carrying, and this is hypothetical only, would you be justified in drawing down on him.
    Unless you're an LEO, absolutely not! That's a good way to lose your permit, weapon, freedom, and possibly even your life.

    Unless & until you see/hear a threatening gesture, drawing down on someone just because you believe they're carrying illegally (assuming you could reliably make that determination in the first place) is a sure fire way to get yourself in deep doo-doo. The only time drawing down on someone is justified is when innocent life is directly threatened and you are fully prepared to pull the trigger to stop the threat. If you are not LEO, then not only is it NOT your place to effect a "citizen's arrest" on someone with an illegal gun, but I'd say it's a pretty foolish "John Wayne" thing to do. The proper course of action if you were certain this person was illegal and posed a danger would be to distance yourself from that person and call the authorities.
    David

    Kimber Pro CDP II Colt Combat Commander Glock 26 GNS Ruger Mark III 22/45 Kahr CW9 (sold)

  11. #71
    VIP Member Array stormbringerr's Avatar
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    that would be a very bad idea hktexas, click below,,,although i do not entirely agree w/#3 especially in my own home.

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    Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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  12. #72
    Member Array svinfinity45's Avatar
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    Yea I agree. First of all, theres no sure fire way to tell if someone has a legit permit. Someone with a permit that knows you just saw them printing, might say they don't, out of quick thinking (and usually stupid) fear that you might be more likely to report them. Even if you KNOW they don't have a permit, how would it look to you, if a guy that just saw a glimmer from your gun knowingly OR unknowingly to you, just randomly drew down on YOU? I'd be aggressively commanding, assessing, deploying diversionary tactic, and firing COM ASAP.

  13. #73
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    ...I mean if the guy was even more of a jerk than he was already and said "no I don't have a license, even if he did and only said so because he believed, rightly or wrongly that it was none of your busisness, would you be justified in thinking he was up to no good and drawing on him.
    If you believe the government has not given its blessing to a person, you believe you have the right to exert lethal force on that person for that perceived infraction? God Almighty, no!!! You have no such right to do such a thing to another person. Such a person would have every right to resist you to your last breath, were you to do such a thing. Caution, if you value your skin and your freedom.

    If some unidentified person were to come up to me and somehow determine I wasn't up to snuff in his eyes, and that person were to inflict such an illegal show of lethal force on me, I believe my life would be at grave risk at that moment. I would be wholly justified in about any action necessary to terminate that threat to my life. The laws where I live support this. Think about that, as you traipse along that path.

    A.O.J. Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy. Worth thinking about.

    A lack of government permission is merely the lack of a piece of paper; it is not, in and of itself, any sort of threatening act, least of all such an act worthy of the use of lethal force to contain. (Many states recognize the relatively mundane nature of such a thing [lack of papers], correctly classifying it as a misdemeanor.)
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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  14. #74
    Member Array svinfinity45's Avatar
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    Don't want to hijack my own thread, but these last few posts bring up a good scenario...Say your at a gas station as I was, and there is a situation your not (tisk tisk your SA) aware of right around the corner, and you see a person running and pulling a gun. What do you do? Draw and issue him commands? Turns out this guy is another CCW'er, coming to the rescue of this situation.

    NOW there is a HUGE problem. Two people with SAME EXACT mindset (and correct one, at that) as CCW9MM.....someone pointing a weapon at me, I'm going to take action, not knowing they are BOTH on the same side, but due to circumstances (and pretty realistic ones I believe) they don't know this. I think the big statement here is the old tried and true KNOW THY TARGET.

    All in all I think the situation I just listed has no really good ending. Best case one or both of the two GG's would issue commands FIRST, and the rest would be sorted out (hopefully before that "situation" over there gets too hot)...but I think in a situation like this looking at a gun, most people would fire immediately. I think this is how Friendly-Fire incidents with police usually happen? The big difference is, I take it when police train, they train target differentiation, and when in a RL situation, they can differentiate between uniform and BG or unarmed civilian. In my situation, everyone is just plain clothes with no LEO experience.

    Sorry to hijack (well now that I said that this forum is red flagged...HI NSA!!!) the thread, but everyone has come up with alot of good points in the last 8 pages of posting and I think this thread is a great read for anyone.

  15. #75
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    svinfinity45.

    What part of CT are You. I am North of Danbury. CCMAN.

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