Federal or not?

[ICTsnub]

Ok, I'll confess, I always thought of it as the "St. Louis Arch", not the "The Gateway Arch at the Jefferson National Expansion Memorial".

But, how about my local Dillon's(Kroger) grocery store? None of the area stores are posted. One of the services they offer is a post office inside....

Federal Facilities (K.S.A. 75-7c10(a)(15))
18 U.S.C. 930 states that the possession of firearms, or causing a firearm to be
present, in a federal facility or federal court facility will subject the individual to
federal charges.
a.) A “federal facility” is defined as, “a building or part thereof owned or leased
by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for
the purpose of performing their official duties.” 18 U.S.C. 930(g)(1)...

Is that a little Federal space inside the public store?

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[rolyat63]

Yes, on the PO and the USPS should be posted.

[Janq]

Yes, it is.

The employees are agents of and all property there in including mail submitted to them for handling is Fed property as well.
MA though allows carry into a post office so check your own state laws.

- Janq

[dukalmighty]

I'm not sure if it's a post office or a postal collection point,I don't believe the employees behind the counter are federal USPS employees,I might be wrong but when I lived in Kansas the Dillons stores sold stamps etc. but they were dillons employees not USPS and the USPS would pick up parcels and mail at scheduled times.

[TheGreatGonzo]

Generally, those locations are contract locations, not actual federal property. They are neither leased nor owned by the federal government. Some variations do exist, though.
Gonzo

[Warmon]

Is that a little Federal space inside the public store?

Here's another thing to ponder. I have heard that the rule on carry in parks is due out tomorrow. So what happens when you walk into National Park visitor centers, contact stations, historic structures and other staffed locations. I suppose 18 U.S.C. 930 will have to be changed in some way - or people will have to disarm just as before.

[KenInColo]

I'm gonna SWAG this and say it's Not USPS territory and you are probably OK carrying in supermarkets which sell stamps and in other such places like Mail Boxes Etc, etc.

They are not not federal property and the personnel are not federal employees.

We have a Kroger's subsidiary in our town too, City Market. Stamps are sold at the service counter, along w/cigarettes, lottery tickets, money orders and western union but the regular checkout stations also have stamps too.

[Janq]

Selling stamps and shipping services doesn't equate to being a USPS in specific.
The OP states his store has a USPS inside of the store itself.

- Janq

[ICTsnub]

Selling stamps and shipping services doesn't equate to being a USPS in specific.
The OP states his store has a USPS inside of the store itself.

- Janq

Actually i just said Post office, confused about the US part. I get the feeling the real key is if the USPS pays to be there, or it is a store courtesy.

[bigiceman]

Yes, it is.

The employees are agents of and all property there in including mail submitted to them for handling is Fed property as well.
MA though allows carry into a post office so check your own state laws.

- Janq

No offense Janq, but I read the federal statute (copied the Code of Federal Regulation from the poster in the post office) and it doesn't care what your state allows. It is still a federal offense to carry a firearm into a federal postal office. If it is a federal post office the same posting with the gun and international NO symbol over it should be posted "conspicuously" according to the statute. That may be a good test to determine if it is an actual post office for the purpose of applying the federal statutes. The best thing to do will probably be to have someone actually call the postmaster general's office and get an official answer.

[ICTsnub]

Dillon's is an interesting place to carry. They do not post the front door, but they have a bank branch inside. No gunbuster if you stand in line for a teller, but they do post the door of the tiny bank office inside the store. Oddly, two of their branches inside the stores have been armed robbed in the last month.

[Janq]

Actually i just said Post office, confused about the US part. I get the feeling the real key is if the USPS pays to be there, or it is a store courtesy.

If it's a USPS (United States Postal Service)office then it's a "Post Office".
It it's not a USPS and just a place that amongst other things sells stamps (e.g. at the cashiers counter) then it is not a 'Post Office'.


USPS - The United States Postal Service (U.S. Postal Service)

- Janq

[Janq]

Iceman,

I don't know why you would think I'd take offense to your disagreeing with me on *.subject. I wouldn't and don't.

As to the subject rather than repeat what I too have read of the regs (prior to this discussion) and have come to understand from talking to persons directly who are to my mind and understand knowledgeable on this admittedly difficult to discern topic, the following tells the story very well with a conclusion that through my own research comes to be same as my understanding of state and Federal law application.

'Concealed Carry in a Post Ofiice'

FWIW though I personally choose to avoid USPS locations simply because the lines typically are long, and I don't have desire to become a 'test case' when it's just too easy to get stamps and do shipping elsewhere (Mail Boxes Etc.) and/or to locate money orders on the off chance I need one.
I may have a real need to step into a USPS maybe once a year, maybe...and most times I'll just send my wife instead.

- Janq

[Thanis]

...I get the feeling the real key is if the USPS pays to be there, or it is a store courtesy.

I believe you have it (sort of). Sometimes the USPS does not pay anything, but is recognized to fall under the same penalties. Think of an old country store where everyone drops off their mail at.

Normally outside legal carry issues, there are legal advantages for LE (as far as optional charges that can be placed) for location that has even a store courtesy mail service. Like for common / community pick up / drop off locations (that the USPS does not own / lease). You could get a federal charge for stealing a pen, bread, etc.

There were a lot of legal cases like this back in the 20s & 30s.

I think you would be safe to carry, but in a mess if you did something else illegal and had a weapon on you (even if never brandished).

My $.02

[Janq]

Agreed. ^^

And your last sentence pretty much in a nut shell rounds out my understanding as it's been explained to me by folks in the know on this topic per their profession.
The key as advised to me is do not do _anything_ even remotely unlawful and I'll be okay carry in a USPS wise...but keep it CONCEALED.

I did not inquire about open carry under same conditions though as it did not occur to me being that I'm not a proponent of said mode and it's currently not relevant to me as per state law.

- Janq

P.S. - I am not an attorney, more over a practicing Federal law attorney. Nor am I an agent of the USPS.
Do not make _any_ decision in regard to law or lawfulness as based on any post of mine nor, IMHO, any advice as posited via forums and the internet. The fool who does so blindly is foolish. Do your own homework, form your own conclusions, and if deemed prudent seek out subject matter experts toward same preferably with detailed experience in said subject matter field of current and active practice.
Being a 'test case' can be extremely expensive as well as prohibitive and rights & freedoms restrictive as a wrong decision/assumption/understand result.