Federal or not?

This is a discussion on Federal or not? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Ok, I'll confess, I always thought of it as the "St. Louis Arch", not the "The Gateway Arch at the Jefferson National Expansion Memorial". But, ...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 22

Thread: Federal or not?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array ICTsnub's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    911

    Federal or not?

    Ok, I'll confess, I always thought of it as the "St. Louis Arch", not the "The Gateway Arch at the Jefferson National Expansion Memorial".

    But, how about my local Dillon's(Kroger) grocery store? None of the area stores are posted. One of the services they offer is a post office inside....

    Federal Facilities (K.S.A. 75-7c10(a)(15))
    18 U.S.C. 930 states that the possession of firearms, or causing a firearm to be
    present, in a federal facility or federal court facility will subject the individual to
    federal charges.
    a.) A “federal facility” is defined as, “a building or part thereof owned or leased
    by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for
    the purpose of performing their official duties.” 18 U.S.C. 930(g)(1)...

    Is that a little Federal space inside the public store?

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    Senior Member Array rolyat63's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Tampa Bay
    Posts
    887
    Yes, on the PO and the USPS should be posted.
    rolyat63
    NRA Certified Pistol Instructor

    A gun in the hand is a million times more valuable than a cop on the phone!

    FL Concealed Weapon or Firearm Program

  4. #3
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    6,781
    Yes, it is.

    The employees are agents of and all property there in including mail submitted to them for handling is Fed property as well.
    MA though allows carry into a post office so check your own state laws.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #4
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    texas
    Posts
    15,179
    I'm not sure if it's a post office or a postal collection point,I don't believe the employees behind the counter are federal USPS employees,I might be wrong but when I lived in Kansas the Dillons stores sold stamps etc. but they were dillons employees not USPS and the USPS would pick up parcels and mail at scheduled times.
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  6. #5
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    1,086

    Usually...no.

    Generally, those locations are contract locations, not actual federal property. They are neither leased nor owned by the federal government. Some variations do exist, though.
    Gonzo
    "Skin that smokewagon!".

  7. #6
    Senior Member Array Warmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    The Old Dominion
    Posts
    608
    Quote Originally Posted by ICTsnub View Post
    Is that a little Federal space inside the public store?
    Here's another thing to ponder. I have heard that the rule on carry in parks is due out tomorrow. So what happens when you walk into National Park visitor centers, contact stations, historic structures and other staffed locations. I suppose 18 U.S.C. 930 will have to be changed in some way - or people will have to disarm just as before.
    I always aim for the right eye...and I never miss - Goldeneye

  8. #7
    Senior Member Array KenInColo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Western Colorado
    Posts
    991
    I'm gonna SWAG this and say it's Not USPS territory and you are probably OK carrying in supermarkets which sell stamps and in other such places like Mail Boxes Etc, etc.

    They are not not federal property and the personnel are not federal employees.

    We have a Kroger's subsidiary in our town too, City Market. Stamps are sold at the service counter, along w/cigarettes, lottery tickets, money orders and western union but the regular checkout stations also have stamps too.
    An armed populace are called citizens.
    An unarmed populace are called subjects.

  9. #8
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    6,781
    Selling stamps and shipping services doesn't equate to being a USPS in specific.
    The OP states his store has a USPS inside of the store itself.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  10. #9
    Senior Member Array ICTsnub's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    911
    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Selling stamps and shipping services doesn't equate to being a USPS in specific.
    The OP states his store has a USPS inside of the store itself.

    - Janq
    Actually i just said Post office, confused about the US part. I get the feeling the real key is if the USPS pays to be there, or it is a store courtesy.

  11. #10
    Member Array bigiceman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fort Worth, Texas
    Posts
    491
    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Yes, it is.

    The employees are agents of and all property there in including mail submitted to them for handling is Fed property as well.
    MA though allows carry into a post office so check your own state laws.

    - Janq
    No offense Janq, but I read the federal statute (copied the Code of Federal Regulation from the poster in the post office) and it doesn't care what your state allows. It is still a federal offense to carry a firearm into a federal postal office. If it is a federal post office the same posting with the gun and international NO symbol over it should be posted "conspicuously" according to the statute. That may be a good test to determine if it is an actual post office for the purpose of applying the federal statutes. The best thing to do will probably be to have someone actually call the postmaster general's office and get an official answer.
    But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...
    "Baa."
    LTC(RET) Dave Grossman

    Revolutionary War Veterans Association Shooter Qualification: Cook

  12. #11
    Senior Member Array ICTsnub's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    911
    Dillon's is an interesting place to carry. They do not post the front door, but they have a bank branch inside. No gunbuster if you stand in line for a teller, but they do post the door of the tiny bank office inside the store. Oddly, two of their branches inside the stores have been armed robbed in the last month.

  13. #12
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    6,781
    Quote Originally Posted by ICTsnub View Post
    Actually i just said Post office, confused about the US part. I get the feeling the real key is if the USPS pays to be there, or it is a store courtesy.
    If it's a USPS (United States Postal Service)office then it's a "Post Office".
    It it's not a USPS and just a place that amongst other things sells stamps (e.g. at the cashiers counter) then it is not a 'Post Office'.


    USPS - The United States Postal Service (U.S. Postal Service)

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  14. #13
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    6,781
    Iceman,

    I don't know why you would think I'd take offense to your disagreeing with me on *.subject. I wouldn't and don't.

    As to the subject rather than repeat what I too have read of the regs (prior to this discussion) and have come to understand from talking to persons directly who are to my mind and understand knowledgeable on this admittedly difficult to discern topic, the following tells the story very well with a conclusion that through my own research comes to be same as my understanding of state and Federal law application.

    'Concealed Carry in a Post Ofiice'

    FWIW though I personally choose to avoid USPS locations simply because the lines typically are long, and I don't have desire to become a 'test case' when it's just too easy to get stamps and do shipping elsewhere (Mail Boxes Etc.) and/or to locate money orders on the off chance I need one.
    I may have a real need to step into a USPS maybe once a year, maybe...and most times I'll just send my wife instead.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  15. #14
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    2,352
    Quote Originally Posted by ICTsnub View Post
    ...I get the feeling the real key is if the USPS pays to be there, or it is a store courtesy.
    I believe you have it (sort of). Sometimes the USPS does not pay anything, but is recognized to fall under the same penalties. Think of an old country store where everyone drops off their mail at.

    Normally outside legal carry issues, there are legal advantages for LE (as far as optional charges that can be placed) for location that has even a store courtesy mail service. Like for common / community pick up / drop off locations (that the USPS does not own / lease). You could get a federal charge for stealing a pen, bread, etc.

    There were a lot of legal cases like this back in the 20s & 30s.

    I think you would be safe to carry, but in a mess if you did something else illegal and had a weapon on you (even if never brandished).

    My $.02

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    6,781
    Agreed. ^^

    And your last sentence pretty much in a nut shell rounds out my understanding as it's been explained to me by folks in the know on this topic per their profession.
    The key as advised to me is do not do _anything_ even remotely unlawful and I'll be okay carry in a USPS wise...but keep it CONCEALED.

    I did not inquire about open carry under same conditions though as it did not occur to me being that I'm not a proponent of said mode and it's currently not relevant to me as per state law.

    - Janq

    P.S. - I am not an attorney, more over a practicing Federal law attorney. Nor am I an agent of the USPS.
    Do not make _any_ decision in regard to law or lawfulness as based on any post of mine nor, IMHO, any advice as posited via forums and the internet. The fool who does so blindly is foolish. Do your own homework, form your own conclusions, and if deemed prudent seek out subject matter experts toward same preferably with detailed experience in said subject matter field of current and active practice.
    Being a 'test case' can be extremely expensive as well as prohibitive and rights & freedoms restrictive as a wrong decision/assumption/understand result.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. FEDERAL TACTICAL BONDED 9mm. OR FEDERAL HST
    By The Fish in forum Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: July 24th, 2012, 02:02 PM
  2. 327 Federal vs 38 Plus P
    By Tommys in forum Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics
    Replies: 55
    Last Post: April 26th, 2012, 04:28 PM
  3. Federal HST
    By DaxE in forum Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: January 24th, 2010, 04:48 PM
  4. Federal HST 9mm
    By QuickDrawMcGraw in forum Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: May 5th, 2008, 04:50 AM
  5. Federal EFMJ & Federal HST
    By TonySoprano in forum Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: May 19th, 2005, 09:16 AM