October 15th, 2008 01:28 PM
Concealed to open or car, and/or which and when appropriate...huh?
Does anyone know or heard of a case where someone got busted for going from concealed to open carry? I'm pretty new at this and I'm wondering...something...but I can't even formulate the question! I guess I'm wondering whether there has ever been a case where someone was in the wrong for doing this--or vice versa--from open or car to concealed.
This post is stemming from my problem with getting my mind around the fact that, as an MP, we HAD to exercise a "show of force" before progressing up the use of force ladder. But as a civilian, if I run into trouble and 'brandish', I'm really in trouble, legally, and it can get me killed too. I understand that. What I can't get out of my mind is the value of a show of force, I guess. It is a valuable tool--just like mace or a club or a gun. But the only way I can think of that it could be used effectively is in showing up at a situation already in an open carry mode. Maybe some creative or semi-sarcastic communication that let the BG know that if he tries something he's toast.
Please don't just post the wrongness and dangers of brandishing. Got it--thanks. But please do post your thoughts about open vs. concealed vs. car carry: when to, not to, dangers, why, where, when, what color, you know...
October 15th, 2008 01:45 PM
I am not sure I can answer your question but as a civilian a show if force is a threat. I am of the mentality, right or wrong, that I do not pull my gun or make a move for it until I am ready to use it or at least if the other person does not back off immediately. To me it is a last resort but to some it seems to be a first or close to it resort.
Where as an MP your presence already establishes that your are armed and ready to use force. When you escalate it you are just reenforcing that idea. As a civilian we do not have tha luxury and any show of force it immediatly seen as a threat. If you are in your car and have a need to show your gun then you need to be ready to use it. I think your point is that you want to scare someone with your gun and I don't think that falls under the guidelines that most of us use.
I am completely open to comments on this either fro or against.
October 15th, 2008 02:07 PM
I don't think that I want to scare someone--I just see the value of a show of force as stopping 90% of all issues from my past as an MP. This is a completely new game, though--and not a game at all. Your point is well taken that any show of force as a civilian is seen as a threat.
So what's the value of carrying open? Is this just for convenience, like maybe going to and from the farm store? I've never seen anyone anywhere carrying open.
October 15th, 2008 02:08 PM
If brandishing is illegal in your state I would suggest you don't do it. If you are in a situation that may require deadly force to protect yourself draw quickly. Otherwise leave it holstered or out of sight.
What are you going to do if you draw as a threat , then someone advances without a weapon? Bottom line , let em be surprised you are armed if the need arises.
"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset
October 15th, 2008 02:12 PM
I see the value in waiting until the absolute last split second...or at least the last 1.4 seconds.
October 15th, 2008 02:43 PM
"Brandishing" is a very tricky subject, and depends highly on the circumstances. It usually requires you handle the gun in a careless or threatening manner in the presence of others. However, there is a lot of wiggle room. What is "careless", and what is "present". I think you are fine in your case, but then again, it all depends. One could argue that someone feels that you are careless to handle a loaded firearm at all, and that they feel like they are "present" as they walk past your car.
Reality: At least here in Florida, "brandishing" is hardly ever used directly and if you see a conviction for it, it is usually due to plea-bargaining some othr gun charge down to brandishing.
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. (Thomas Jefferson)
October 15th, 2008 02:57 PM
In Okla it is not a crime to point a weapon when in defense of any person, one's home or property. Atleast thats what the law here says.
October 15th, 2008 04:35 PM
What it boils down too is know your state laws! Just about every state looks at brandishing differently. Heres a little scenario:
Bad guy is approaching you with what looks like a knife.
1. You tell him to stop, that you are armed with a gun and will defend yourself. He keeps coming
2. You lift your shirt and place your hand on your weapon but do not draw. You tell the BG again that you are armed and will shoot if you have to. He keeps coming
3. You draw your weapon and point it at him and tell him to stop. He finally does stop.
He pulls his ear-buds from his I-pod out of his ears and puts his hands up. You then notice that what you thought was a knife was actually just a cell phone, which he uses to call the PoPo on you.
The PoPo show up and arrest you for brandishing. At which point (number 1, 2, or 3) did you brandish? Answer: Depends on the state you're in. A couple states say that if you have a gun on you and threaten someone with the gun, even if the weapon is not visible, it could be considered brandishing (#1). It is a bit of a stretch, I think most would charge you with making threats.
Some states would get you for #2. Using your weapon in a threatening or intimidating manner is considered brandishing. Doesn't matter if the weapon never left the holster.
Some state laws are very specific and say the gun must leave the holster for it to be considered brandishing (#3).
Every one of these cases shows one thing, intent. You intentionally exposed your weapon. Most states and most LEOs are not going to bust your stones because you flashed your weapon (wind, taking a jacket off, etc.), there was no intent there. I know there are some states that are pretty anal about it and don't even want you to print, and I'm sure someone will chime in and tell us which states.
The states also vary on car carry. In PA you can open carry without a permit, but you need one for vehicle carry. So the minute you set down in your car with your OC gun on your hip you better have a permit. If not you have to unload it and lock it in the trunk. If you are in the process of unloading it and someone sees the gun and calls the police you might be caught in a grey area. Explain what you were doing and hopefully the LEO will use some common sense and see that there was no harmful intent. Just make sure that you use common sense and be discrete when you remove/holster your weapon.
"I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals
." - Sir Winston Churchill
October 15th, 2008 05:02 PM
That is the best advice anyone can give and seems to be in short supply lately like $2 gas. I have had plenty of LEO tell me that as long as you behave they don't give a rip whether you have a gun or not. It is when you start showing off or threatening that you get in trouble. This advice won't cover 100% of the cases but will go a long ways.
Just make sure that you use common sense
October 15th, 2008 05:39 PM
Never show the weapon unless you ARE going to use it (sort of)...I would be busy backing away, apologizing, or ordering a potential 'interviewer' to stay back.
If I every confused a knife attacker with an ipod user, then my observation skills need some work. One can tell a lot by the way an individual moves, makes or doesn't make eye contact, the area, etc.
I know what to expect in the places I go, if something seems odd, then it probably is...stay very aware.
Stay armed...stay yellowish-orange...stay safe!
The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member[/B]
October 15th, 2008 06:20 PM
+1 to the above, but an example of hwat I do, and have done....
I own rental properties in a not-so nice area of town. Occasionally, when I arrive at one of my properties to find several people (non-tenants) "hanging around" in a manner I think is indicative of potential trouble, I will simply unblouse my shirt from the tuckable holster (where is was concealed), tuck the shirt in behin the holster and step out of the car "open carry".
This has the benefit in NC or not being considered brandishing, because the loiterers did not see the transition from CC to OC.
Other times, I have simply used the excuse of reaching into my wallet for a business card (I am a REALTOR, as an everyone knows, we whip out business cards at the drop of a hat), and swept back my jacket "accidentally" revealing the presence of a firearm as I reached for my wallet.
If however, I were to simply brush back the jacket for the PURPOSE of revealing the weapon, it would be brandishing. (at least here in NC)
While I will fully admit this plays awfully close to the line, I also believe that if the persons making you nervous are legit they will not know what just happened. If they are not legit, they will know exactly what happened, but are unlikely to go find the first cop they can find and report you.
Either way, there is a valid defense that you did not "brandish" because there is no evidence you attempted to threaten or intimidate through the presence of a weapon.
October 15th, 2008 06:43 PM
Here in Virginia, some places(Restaurants serving alcohol) you cannot go into concealed. So that would be the benefit of Open Carry.
Car Carry would be better than nothing, but if the gun isn't on your person in every LEGAL place you can go with it... you won't have time to run out to your car to get a gun.
Nobody will know I am carrying until I need to expressly draw my gun with the intention of having to use it.
As a citizen, we have the responsibility to try to diffuse a situation before it escalates, not use show of force to disable the situation.
If an argument starts outside in a parking lot, we need to try to diffuse the situation by either escaping the situation, or making amends by calming down, not shouting back and showing that you have can use force to remedy the situation.
I guess thats the difference. As an LEO, or MP, or anything, you are an official authority able to resolve conflicts with the legal ability to use force.
As a citizen, you cannot use force unless all other options have been exhausted first. IE no escape, immediate life threatened.
October 15th, 2008 08:52 PM
I don't know of anybody being busted as in your opening question.
Depending on your location on Earth, (ie. Arizona) you can do so with impunity. Arizona being an open carry state allows a person with a CCW permit to pull their jacket or other cover off and switch back and forth at will.
You are not allowed to threaten anyone in the process however.
"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." - Thomas Jefferson
October 15th, 2008 09:41 PM
While I agree that if you draw your weapon you had better be ready and willing to use it, you also must be ready stand down if the threat goes away.
If when I draw my weapon my attacker turns and runs it has served its purpose. There is no reason for me to shoot.
October 19th, 2008 09:18 PM
This is it exactly. You put youself in a bad position if you draw your weapon in an instance in which you are not entitled to use it. You run the risk of pouring gasoline on some idiots fire by doing this.
Originally Posted by rocky
I would draw on someone coming at me with a baseball bat and shoot if that did not stop the advance. However it is not the same as someone coming at you with just a big mouth.
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