CCW Permit Holder Pulls Gun At Soccer Game (Merged)

This is a discussion on CCW Permit Holder Pulls Gun At Soccer Game (Merged) within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by cphilip Maybe... but Burke started the altercation. Burke didn't start the physical altercation. The husband did. Originally Posted by cphilip So he ...

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Thread: CCW Permit Holder Pulls Gun At Soccer Game (Merged)

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array grady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cphilip View Post
    Maybe... but Burke started the altercation.
    Burke didn't start the physical altercation. The husband did.

    Quote Originally Posted by cphilip View Post
    So he was not "without fault".
    I never gave him a pardon.

    Quote Originally Posted by cphilip View Post
    And it sounds like the husband was attempting to get in between the two but I am just imagining that from what I can read.
    Then what was the coach doing in the stands?

    Quote Originally Posted by cphilip View Post
    If so, were it my wife, I would feel justified in coming between someone irate, yelling and close and seemingly out of control in my Wifes face.
    Unless I misread something, Burke was not in the coach's face, unless she was in the stands. Perhaps not enough details to say for sure, but saying he was in her face may be conjecture.

    If he was in her face, I agree with coming in between them. But based on how I read the story, Burke and the husband were in the stands, not in the coach's face.

    Quote Originally Posted by cphilip View Post
    But he obviously had every opportunity to walk away. He could have avoided it.
    Agreed. He blew it.

    With reference to the husband's actions, then the next time some guy yells at my wife, I can push him down? I don't think the laws of Missouri would agree that I was innocent if I did that. If I did that, I'd probably face charges.

    I never said Burke was an angel. But the first one to initiate physical contact escalated the situation from yelling to fighting, and that was the husband.

    I do not give the husband a free pass unless Burke was very close to the wife, which I see no evidence as of yet. If he was close, then I'm siding with the husband. But I don't read that in the story.

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  3. #47
    Member Array DAtrigger's Avatar
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    Good thing this didn't end up like "the hockey dad incident"

    Hockey Dad Found Guilty, Thomas Junta Convicted Of Involuntary Manslaughter - CBS News


    In the Massachusetts hockey dad story back in 2000, there was an about 120 pound weight difference between the two men.

  4. #48
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    In Texas in a SD shooting you cannot provoke an incident and escalate it to a point where you draw your weapon,the guy started the incident by yelling at the coach,not good parenting at a kids game,they are there to learn and play ,not have some parent decide the coach isn't letting their kid play enough etc.when her husband came to her defense he then drew his gun,he better get a good lawyer
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  5. #49
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tns0038 View Post
    As more and more citizens get there CCL, we are going to have more unwarranted use and branching of firearms.

    And my biggest fear is one day some political authority is going to use a case like this to ban citizens from getting CCL's.
    Your first statement sounds like an anti-gunner line like there's going to be blood in the streets if we allow people to have guns. I don't buy this argument I've seen around that because of the restrictive nature of CCW licensing laws, CHL holders are a low crime risk, therefore CCW laws are justified. It's self defeating argument. It's an inalienable right. If you limit who is allowed that right, it's no longer an inalienable fundamental right of all men.

    There shouldn't be a lot of onerous restrictions on getting the right. It's already illegal to brandish a handgun. It's already illegal to murder someone with a handgun. We don't need to do a lot of psychological testing and training on this guy to see if he lives up to the elite status of a CHL holder. He should only lose his freedom after he abuses the right to be a free man, not before.

    People, whether they are badge carrying members of the CHL elite, or whether they are armed only under their inalienable right as a human, will do bad things to other people. If it hadn't been a gun, it could have been a knife. Oh, and before there was a weapon, there was a simple assault, an argument and a shove. Maybe because some people don't know how to act at a kid's soccer game, we should limit the right to freely assemble to only the right people?

  6. #50
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Let's look at how the laws are written in Texas. In the penal code we have:

    9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of
    force is justified when the use of force is justified by this
    chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or
    serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as
    long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension
    that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the
    use of deadly force.

    The threat of force is justified if the use of force is justified, and brandishing a weapon is not necessarily deadly force. The man was assaulted physically. He was shoved. Was he justified in using force in response?

    Then we have:

    9.31. SELF-DEFENSE. (a) Except as provided in
    Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against
    another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the
    force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the
    other's use or attempted use of unlawful force. The actor's belief
    that the force was immediately necessary as described by this
    subsection is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:

    Then we have the gotcha in "2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used," which is the big problem for our Lubbock redneck.

    The interesting thing is that in items 1, 2, and 3, these are only presumptions of the reasonableness of the use of force for self defense. In 1c) it's presumed reasonable if you're subject to: "aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual
    assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery." It's presumed not reasonable under 9.31b for verbal provocation alone. The interesting thing is that no where in the subsections of 9.31 does it say if it's reasonable to use force against a simple unprovoked assault.

    Looks to me that the assault was illegal. Section 9.31 says you're justified to use force against an unprovoked illegal assault. Nothing in 9.31 sub-sections says it isn't justified, and brandishing a weapon isn't the use of deadly force. It looks to me that had he not provoked the assault, he would have been justified to brandish the gun to stop the assault. I don't see any requirement under Texas law for him to justify deadly force before he can draw his weapon. So, even if the husband was an unarmed little guy, the redneck was a big black belt karate guy, and the assault was anything beyond a verbal provocation, I doesn't look to me like it would be illegal in Texas for the redneck to draw his gun. That is, unless he provoked the assault.

    Opinions?

  7. #51
    Distinguished Member Array GWRedDragon's Avatar
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    That sounds reasonable. If instead the attacker had had no previous conversation with the victim and merely walked up and hit him, it seems to me that the law should allow a draw (not that it does in my state or probably most states, so clearly not a good idea in those places).

    It makes sense that someone minding their own business would be more protected by the law than someone who is continuing an argument.
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  8. #52
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    The question I'm asking myself is what does it take to provoke an assault? If I cut off a guy on the freeway is that provocation? If the hothead follows me into a gas station, threatens me, and I tell him to kiss off. Is that provocation? If I yell at him, insult his momma, and threaten him back, is that provocation? It seems to me that if someone resorts to violence, it's by definition unprovoked. That's why assault is illegal.

    How does that work? If two men escalate an argument into a fight, are both men arrested for assault? Our redneck gets charged with aggravated assault with a deadly weapon? What about the husband?

  9. #53
    Distinguished Member Array GWRedDragon's Avatar
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    In my view:

    Quote Originally Posted by dldeuce View Post
    If I cut off a guy on the freeway is that provocation? No.

    If the hothead follows me into a gas station, threatens me, and I tell him to kiss off. Is that provocation? No.

    If I yell at him, insult his momma, and threaten him back, is that provocation? Yes.
    The moment you get angry you have joined in the fight.
    "Trust in God with hand on sword" -Inscription on my family's coat of arms from medieval England
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  10. #54
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    Right now all we have is the news report. Based on what facts we have been given, it appears Burke may have been wrong in pulling his weapon. Just as the husband was wrong in shoving him. Both were in the stands, the coach was not in the stands, so the husband cannot claim he was defending his wife. What was said during the verbal confrontation between Burke and the husband? For all we know the husband could have threaten to kill Burke just before shoving him to the ground. That could put a totally different prospective on this incident. I'm not saying that did happen. We don't know what was said, and probably won't know unless this goes to trial and makes the papers.
    Should Burke have refrained from arguing with the coach and then her husband? Yes. But truthfully that is all we really know for sure at this point.
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  11. #55
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GWRedDragon View Post
    In my view:

    The moment you get angry you have joined in the fight.
    You'd definitely seem to cross over this vague line into a dangerous gray area.

    What if it were the other way around? The redneck is still the aggressor. Both are participating in the heated argument. This time the redneck initiates the assault with the shove, and the husband pulls out the gun. Does the husband go to jail on aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, and the redneck gets off scott free? I hope not anyway. If I were on the jury for this scenario, the redneck would still be the aggressor, and I'd have a hard time convicting the husband of a 2nd degree felony with a 2-20 year jail sentence. It would be especially hard if I knew the redneck got off scott free.

  12. #56
    Distinguished Member Array GWRedDragon's Avatar
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    I suppose it would depend on whether the pushed individual could reasonably assume that the push was just the beginning, and that he was about to get beaten up. If so, the law should view ending the threat with a draw to be justified.
    "Trust in God with hand on sword" -Inscription on my family's coat of arms from medieval England
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  13. #57
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    Right now all we have is the news report. Based on what facts we have been given, it appears Burke may have been wrong in pulling his weapon. Just as the husband was wrong in shoving him. Both were in the stands, the coach was not in the stands, so the husband cannot claim he was defending his wife.
    After reading the story again, the husband could have been the aggressor all the way through. The redneck could have just been making an ass off himself yelling and criticizing the coach. If I was on the jury, that's not a provocation for a fight with the husband. In that scenario, I'd think it was pretty unfair that he goes down for a 2nd degree felony and the husband walks off scott free.

    The reality is though that everyone probably thought the redneck was a jerk, and he'd probably have gone to jail even on disorderly conduct no matter what. The gun just escalated his jail sentence.

  14. #58
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GWRedDragon View Post
    I suppose it would depend on whether the pushed individual could reasonably assume that the push was just the beginning, and that he was about to get beaten up. If so, the law should view ending the threat with a draw to be justified.
    An escalating argument, turned into a threatening shove, I'd say it would be a reasonable presumption. In Texas, you don't have to retreat from violence.

    9.31 (f) For purposes of Subsection (a), in determining whether
    an actor described by Subsection (e) reasonably believed that the
    use of force was necessary, a finder of fact may not consider
    whether the actor failed to retreat.

    The key word is provocation. You can't participate in provocation and claim self defense. Considering it's a 2nd degree felony with 2-20 year prison sentence, that's not much of a hook to hang your cowboy hat on.

  15. #59
    Senior Member Array KenInColo's Avatar
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    I could be totally wrong here, (and please correct me if I am) but doesn't Texas have a statute whereby a husband is allowed to defend the honor of his wife?

    I believe I read that in a handout on self defense in one of the classes I've taken.
    An armed populace are called citizens.
    An unarmed populace are called subjects.

  16. #60
    VIP Member Array cphilip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grady View Post
    Burke didn't start the physical altercation. The husband did.

    I never gave him a pardon.

    Then what was the coach doing in the stands?

    Unless I misread something, Burke was not in the coach's face, unless she was in the stands. Perhaps not enough details to say for sure, but saying he was in her face may be conjecture.

    If he was in her face, I agree with coming in between them. But based on how I read the story, Burke and the husband were in the stands, not in the coach's face.

    Agreed. He blew it.

    With reference to the husband's actions, then the next time some guy yells at my wife, I can push him down? I don't think the laws of Missouri would agree that I was innocent if I did that. If I did that, I'd probably face charges.

    I never said Burke was an angel. But the first one to initiate physical contact escalated the situation from yelling to fighting, and that was the husband.

    I do not give the husband a free pass unless Burke was very close to the wife, which I see no evidence as of yet. If he was close, then I'm siding with the husband. But I don't read that in the story.

    Very good counter points. I guess we need more info don't we?

    For one I assume the Police took witness statements but it might be dangerous to assume what those entailed. However, if we do use that, then they must have been damaging to Mr Burke, hence the outcome being severe charges filed.

    But... we should wait to confirm that.

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