Interesting Traffic Stop - First LEO contact with permit

This is a discussion on Interesting Traffic Stop - First LEO contact with permit within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by broknindarkagain When the officer walked up he asked me for my license and registration. I told him "Yes, I have them but ...

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Thread: Interesting Traffic Stop - First LEO contact with permit

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by broknindarkagain View Post
    When the officer walked up he asked me for my license and registration. I told him "Yes, I have them but I'm armed and licensed to carry."

    The officer didn't seem alarmed at all. He just asked me where my gun was and what kind of gun it was. I told him "Its in my center console. Its a Taurus 9mm and it is loaded." He then asked me to get out of the car, so I stepped out and walked to the back of my car and leaned up on it. He pulled my gun out, unloaded it and walked it over to his car. He said "I'm doing this for my safety." I replied "I understand, its not a problem."
    Another poster has said it's not required to show your CHL to LEOs in Georgia. I don't know if that's true or not, but by announcing that you were armed, you subjected yourself to increased scrutiny. You were subjected to a search of your vehicle, probably an illegal search unless you gave him permission. You were stripped of your personal property. You were treated differently than any other ordinary citizen would have been treated. You were treated like a criminal with a gun.

    If I weren't legally required to, I would never subject myself to being treated like that. Under any circumstances, I would never agree to allow for a search of my vehicle. If you were asked to exit the vehicle, roll your windows up and lock the doors as you exit.

    I noticed that he didn't offer you the same protections to your safety by giving you his gun and letting you search his vehicle in case he might have had any other weapons you might need to be concerned about.

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  3. #32
    Distinguished Member Array GWRedDragon's Avatar
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    I like the idea of saying nothing and just handing over the permit with the other paperwork. It gives the impression that you know what you're doing and you have nothing to hide, but that you appreciate your privacy as well.
    "Trust in God with hand on sword" -Inscription on my family's coat of arms from medieval England
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  4. #33
    Member Array mapriceak's Avatar
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    Here in Alaska, the trooper greets you then asks if there are any weapons in the vehicle he needs to know about. Here, a CCP is an Alaskan drivers license so anyone who can legally buy a handgun in Alaska can carry concealed.
    Evil triumphs when good men do nothing! Edmond Burke
    Where the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Where the government fears the people, there is liberty! Benjamin Franklin

    THIS IS THE PRIMARY REASON WE HAVE THE 2ND AMENDMENT!!!

  5. #34
    Member Array calmp9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Not saying you did a bad job, but a better way to phrase it would include using "policespeak", or phrasing similar to what he used with you.

    EXAMPLE:

    O: "License and Registration Please.

    S: "For your safety and mine I would like to tell you that I have a Concealed Weapons Permit and I have a legally carried firearm on me in the vehicle. How would you like to proceed?"

    After that it's his or her call. Your phrasing tells him that you are concerned with his or her safety, as well as your own. It also shows compliance.

    I'm a LEO and that's very similar to what was "suggested" to me by one of the agency lawyers. Take care and stay safe.

    Biker

    PS: Don't ever use the word "gun" in this situation.
    Thanks for the input on this. Feedback from law enforcement officers is very important. If there are any others out there, please give us your opinion as to how to conduct ourselves in scenarios such as this.
    "[A]rms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."

    - Thomas Paine, Thoughts On Defensive War, 1775

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Not saying you did a bad job, but a better way to phrase it would include using "policespeak", or phrasing similar to what he used with you.

    EXAMPLE:

    O: "License and Registration Please.

    S: "For your safety and mine I would like to tell you that I have a Concealed Weapons Permit and I have a legally carried firearm on me in the vehicle. How would you like to proceed?"

    After that it's his or her call. Your phrasing tells him that you are concerned with his or her safety, as well as your own. It also shows compliance.

    I'm a LEO and that's very similar to what was "suggested" to me by one of the agency lawyers. Take care and stay safe.

    Biker

    PS: Don't ever use the word "gun" in this situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Trying to sound official always slightly annoys me, I'd just keep it simple and direct to the point.
    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Gee, there's one in every crowd.

    It has nothing to do with "sounding official". It has everything to do with going home after the stop is completed.

    It's letting the officer know that their is a weapon involved, besides the one the officer has, in as non-threatening a manner as possible.

    Thank you and have a good night.

    Biker
    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Hey Biker, I'm not in total disagreement with you, but it is annoying when people try to sound official with lawyer speak. I understand the thinking behind your advice. Just tell me what you want to tell me, I understand both jargons.

    Just curious though, as federal LEO, how many and what kind of traffic stops do you make?
    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Traffic?

    What traffic? Give me a dollar and I'll go play in the road.

    Seriously though, I don't do traffic stops. That's way too dangerous for this bookworm.
    And there we have it. Thanks for playing.

    As for telling the NYC officer your carrying, keep it straight forward and simple.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  7. #36
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mapriceak View Post
    Here in Alaska, the trooper greets you then asks if there are any weapons in the vehicle he needs to know about.
    To this, I would always answer no. Law enforcement doesn't need to know and is not entitled to know anything about our private personal possessions during a traffic stop.

  8. #37
    VIP Member Array old grunt's Avatar
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    You did good

    "The guilty flee where no man pursues".....as long as you're doing the right thing you have NOTHING to fear from the local police. You handled it very well. If you are ever "pulled over" again at night...here's a NY trick>>turn your inside dome light on and put you hands on the steering wheel, with the window down of course. It makes the cop see you know what you are doing and put him or her at ease. HAPPY CARRYING !!
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  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by old grunt View Post
    "The guilty flee where no man pursues".....as long as you're doing the right thing you have NOTHING to fear from the local police.
    Except for the bad cops out there...which you cannot identify or do anything about. My wife and I have an ongoing disagreement about what to do if you KNOW that it's a bad cop you're dealing with. I say that no matter what you've got to do what he says--then work it out in court later or you could get a good beatdown or actually get yourself dead--as has happened several times here in the last couple of years. She thinks she has rights above and beyone those that have been taken from her by a bad cop and says she will try to exercise them if need be whether the cop wants her to or not. I think that as a female she may have better luck doing this than I would.

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by dldeuce View Post
    To this, I would always answer no. Law enforcement doesn't need to know and is not entitled to know anything about our private personal possessions during a traffic stop.
    This seems to me to be a potentially dangerous situation. What happens if he sees you are armed after you told him you weren't? This is not at all the same as not volunteering the information.

    I don't think this would be a case of an anti LEO overreacting. As soon as he saw your gun I'm sure his would be out and you would be on the ground.

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array tns0038's Avatar
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    I agree.... with Biker RN

    But to that:

    I never keep my registration or license in the same place as my pistol

  12. #41
    Ex Member Array Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Trying to sound official always slightly annoys me, I'd just keep it simple and direct to the point.
    Polite but not obseqious should be just fine.

  13. #42
    Ex Member Array Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy View Post
    DING DING DING.... we have a winner.

    I like this way much better specially in cases like Der Alte where other people might be around and they do not need to know you have a weapon. Now, of course we should hear from our LEOs about this method of information.
    Unfortunately, that's probably not good enough in Ohio. The way the statute is (or at least was) written, it verges on a race to see if you can notify before he cites or threatens to cite you for not notifying. A reasonable person would consider being handed a CHL notification, but not apparently here. Of course cops here are a lot less nervous about CCW than they first were.

  14. #43
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevePVB View Post
    This seems to me to be a potentially dangerous situation. What happens if he sees you are armed after you told him you weren't? This is not at all the same as not volunteering the information.

    I don't think this would be a case of an anti LEO overreacting. As soon as he saw your gun I'm sure his would be out and you would be on the ground.
    The question was "are any weapons in the vehicle he needs to know about?" The answer is no, he doesn't need to know about weapons in the vehicle legally or illegally. No, he doesn't need to know about illegal drugs in the vehicle. No, he doesn't need to know about dead bodies in the trunk. Unless he has probable cause to search the vehicle, he doesn't need to know, and we have a right not to reveal any information that would tend to incriminate ourselves. Telling an officer that I'm armed tends to do just that. In this case, it subjected the driver to being treated like a criminal and what appears to have been an illegal search and seizure.

    If he were to see a gun, that's a different scenario. Is this an open carry state? If it is, then seeing a legally possessed/carried firearm shouldn't be a surprise, and a reaction like you mention above could get him into a lot of trouble. If it's a concealed only state and he sees a gun, it's likely a firearms violation, and he's going to deal with the person as a criminal. If it's concealed, he shouldn't see it, doesn't need to see it, and won't see it unless you tell him it's there.

    Even in Texas, as I read the law, you have to hand him your CHL if you're carrying a handgun, but you don't have to tell the officer you're armed. In all these discussions about LEO encounters, I can't see any advantage in doing so.

  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    Unfortunately, that's probably not good enough in Ohio. The way the statute is (or at least was) written, it verges on a race to see if you can notify before he cites or threatens to cite you for not notifying. A reasonable person would consider being handed a CHL notification, but not apparently here. Of course cops here are a lot less nervous about CCW than they first were.
    As a Ohio LEO, that just isnt the case. Sorry you feel that way.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    Unfortunately, that's probably not good enough in Ohio. The way the statute is (or at least was) written, it verges on a race to see if you can notify before he cites or threatens to cite you for not notifying. A reasonable person would consider being handed a CHL notification, but not apparently here. Of course cops here are a lot less nervous about CCW than they first were.
    I am sorry to hear that. Is there a way to get a clarification from your State Attorney on the issue?
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
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