Defense of others?

This is a discussion on Defense of others? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The answer is both simple, and complicated. Simple: One can always use lethal force to defend a third person, if the third person could lawfully ...

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Thread: Defense of others?

  1. #16
    Member Array tflhndn's Avatar
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    The answer is both simple, and complicated.

    Simple: One can always use lethal force to defend a third person, if the third person could lawfully use lethal force to defend themselves.

    Complicated: what cricumstances would allow you to KNOW that the third person could LEGALLY use lethal force?

    If I saw a woman being raped, if I saw someone being beaten severely (i.e. with a weapon), if I saw an entire altercation, from the beginning, and KNEW who was BG/GG, then yes, I hope I would intervene.

    If I saw a man start to hack of the head of the person sitting beside him on a bus, yes, I hope I would intervene.

    If I saw a guy enter a McDonalds and start shooting people, yes, I would intervene. Hopefully I would do so effectively, but I would try.

    Evil prevails when no good man takes action to defeat it.

    Be warned though, the real world is usually a lot more murky. Unless you KNOW the situation, beware and be wary of getting involved.

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    +1 for Hotguns response.

    Know what your state law is regarding use of deadly force, for yourself and for others. Then once you know what the law is, you have to make the choice as to what you are willing to live as far as actions or inaction.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  4. #18
    Senior Member Array KenInColo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paymeister View Post
    In my CCW class it was hammered into us that what we thing we're seeing may not be what is really going on...

    But I'm not sure how I would respond with a kid being dragged into a car shouting "I don't know you!"...
    Our CHL instructor, (a LEO), "hammered" in the same stuff:

    This situation actually happened in a Denver suburb. A guy, was observed by a civilian, dragging a screaming teen-age girl into his car at a shopping mall. The civilian called 911 and followed the car, all the while vectoring the police in. When the car stopped in front of a house, the police were there in less than 10 seconds. The guy turned out to be the girl's mom's live-in boyfriend; the boyfriend had been sent to the mall by the mom to retrieve the the girl.
    An armed populace are called citizens.
    An unarmed populace are called subjects.

  5. #19
    Member Array Rusty Bouquett's Avatar
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    Defending a third party is one of those situations where one would be well advised to employ an "less lethal" device rather than a gun. THEN, if the perp turns and attacks you perhaps your gun could come into play.

  6. #20
    Member Array turbobore's Avatar
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    If I am ever in a dire situation and in desperate need of assistance I will feel reassured knowing that there are some brave "good witnesses" out there, hiding behind a car and taking photos with a cell phone after calling 911.

  7. #21
    mfs
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    I know I'm new here, and have not even introduced myself, but I thought perhaps this might apply:

    Untitled

    BTW, in my state use of deadly force is authorized when you or another is in imminent danger.

  8. #22
    Senior Member Array KenInColo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tflhndn View Post
    ...if I saw an entire altercation, from the beginning, and KNEW who was BG/GG...
    Thaaat's the key.
    An armed populace are called citizens.
    An unarmed populace are called subjects.

  9. #23
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Situations happen quick.

    The action may be over before you even know whom is whom. We can plan and run scenarios in our mind all day and night long, but no two situations are ever going to be exactly the same.

    Here's a link to some interesting reading to help you make your decision.

    Commentary by Evan Marshall

    BTW: I'm a LEO and my general rule of thumb is to be a good witness if I am off the clock.

    Biker

  10. #24
    Distinguished Member Array Squawker's Avatar
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    You certainly have to use care when defending a 3rd person. And the level of violence has to be very high if you're going to use a gun to do it. No, you certainly wouldn't want to draw on a plain clothes officer making an arrest. But I doubt that an officer will be bludgeoning someone, or raping them. I try not to get involved in the affairs of others, as I don't want them involved in mine. But if I failed to act, and someone died because of it, I couldn't live with myself. Of I come upon someone holding a gun on another person, I would take cover myself then try to determine what was actually going on. If it looked like the gunman was going to shoot an unarmed person (obviously not something an under cover cop is not going to do, then I'm going to take action. Also, I certainly doubt that an undercover cop will be in the process of raping a woman (Not sure, but I figure that would hurt your chance of promotion. then again, I'm not a cop, so I can't be sure...). I will take action if I see a woman screaming no, pr "rape", while someone is pulling her clothes off in public. And, if I walk into a convenience store to see someone with a gun taking money, I'll probably try to move behind cover, and watch what was happening, to be a good witness. I won't get involved unless the third person is in danger of death or severe injury. Now, if I'M the one being robbed, I hope to be able to pull a Denny Crane (Ok, watch, wallet, gun-BANG).

  11. #25
    Member Array AgentX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tflhndn View Post
    The answer is both simple, and complicated.

    Simple: One can always use lethal force to defend a third person, if the third person could lawfully use lethal force to defend themselves.

    Complicated: what cricumstances would allow you to KNOW that the third person could LEGALLY use lethal force?

    If I saw a woman being raped, if I saw someone being beaten severely (i.e. with a weapon), if I saw an entire altercation, from the beginning, and KNEW who was BG/GG, then yes, I hope I would intervene.

    If I saw a man start to hack of the head of the person sitting beside him on a bus, yes, I hope I would intervene.

    If I saw a guy enter a McDonalds and start shooting people, yes, I would intervene. Hopefully I would do so effectively, but I would try.

    Evil prevails when no good man takes action to defeat it.

    Be warned though, the real world is usually a lot more murky. Unless you KNOW the situation, beware and be wary of getting involved.
    Well said, devil dog...

  12. #26
    Member Array Rev Al's Avatar
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    I had this same debate with myself before I started carrying. An important one to have. I even hashed it out with my dad, who has a permit, but had never really thought about that. I had to conclude, like many of the others, that my responsibility is to myself and my family. Beyond that, that is why I carry my cell phone everywhere too, to dial 911. My responsibility would be to protect myself and family.
    ‘‘The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose.’’
    — James Earl Jones

  13. #27
    Member Array bigiceman's Avatar
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    I am no cop. I am no hero. I am a man who cares about their fellow man and will not limit my care selfishly to only those who are in my immediate family. That does not mean I cannot be a good witness. It does not mean I think I need to draw my firearm in any questionable situation, let alone shoot it.

    The difference between someone getting robbed or beaten is often just someone saying something that indicates the victim will not be alone. When the woman cries rape and no one comes the rape continues; when anyone comes running the act stops. I believed this before I carried a firearm and I still believe it.

    There is no substitute for thinking. My firearm and my CCW license didn't give me a free pass to mindless use of my weapon. To stand by and be a good witness is always a choice. I just don't believe it is always the best choice. It means we have to think, hard, about what needs to be done, and then act.

    The scenarios everyone depicted all involved what could be questionable acts. The girl and her stepfather are a good example. That act could have been confronted at the scene if close enough, as well as following after even if the man said he was her father. If the confrontation didn't stop the act there was no need to clear leather. Man holding a gun on someone, a yell of "hey what do you think you're doing" (from cover), would get a "police business" from a cop. Sexual assault, sorry, clear leather draw down, then start making some commands that will be complied with. Guy with a gun on a clerk in a bank or store, clear leather, then let your conscience be your guide. Domestic dispute, call the cops, tell them you called the cops, and stand by.

    I don't advocate mindlessly throwing yourself into the fray. I also don't advocate standing outside aloof when action could save a life or protect the innocent. Use your brain first and your firearm last, but don't decide in advance to be another uninvolved spectator to the ruin of your own society.

    Quote Originally Posted by mfs View Post
    I know I'm new here, and have not even introduced myself, but I thought perhaps this might apply:

    Untitled

    BTW, in my state use of deadly force is authorized when you or another is in imminent danger.
    MFS, that is one of the best treatises on the whole sheep theory I have every read. Thanks for posting that. I think I am going to change my signiture to include a line from it.
    But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...
    "Baa."
    LTC(RET) Dave Grossman

    Revolutionary War Veterans Association Shooter Qualification: Cook

  14. #28
    Senior Member Array coffeecup's Avatar
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    Hotguns has it right---know your state law.

    We had an incident here in Ky a few years ago where a fellow saw his neighbor severely beating his own wife in the front yard of their home. The witness yelled at the guy to stop before he killed her to which the perp replied,"that's exactly what I intend to do". The neighbor ran into his home and produced a compound bow and promptly placed a broadhead hunting arrow through the BGs throat.
    No charges were filed!!!!

  15. #29
    Distinguished Member Array GWRedDragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squawker View Post
    Also, I certainly doubt that an undercover cop will be in the process of raping a woman (Not sure, but I figure that would hurt your chance of promotion. then again, I'm not a cop, so I can't be sure...).
    Indeed unlikely, but if you come upon an actual rape in progress and the criminal just happens to be a police officer, that probably doesn't mean much at that point. Bad guys are bad guys, whatever clothes they are wearing...just have to be sure of the situation before trying to do anything


    Quote Originally Posted by bigiceman View Post
    I don't advocate mindlessly throwing yourself into the fray. I also don't advocate standing outside aloof when action could save a life or protect the innocent. Use your brain first and your firearm last, but don't decide in advance to be another uninvolved spectator to the ruin of your own society.
    My thoughts exactly.
    "Trust in God with hand on sword" -Inscription on my family's coat of arms from medieval England
    ---Carry options: G26/MTAC, PF9/MiniTuck, PPK/Pocket, USP40/OWB---
    ---NOTE: I am not an expert. If I ever start acting like a know-it-all, please call me on it immediately. ---

  16. #30
    Member Array Rebmik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    I protect my family and myself...all others (almost all others) will require my being a good witness. There are too many variables in most situations for me to stick my nose into...a woman being raped, a child being abducted, a man with a gun facing others...all could be wrongly intrerpreted.
    That's why we have cell phones and eyes...be a great witness. Any other action could cost you your CCW permit, a law suit, or worse.
    You're not a cop...you're not the worlds hero (unless you have a CCW badge...)...wait, you are new here...DON'T get a badge!

    Stay armed...be a good witness...stay safe!
    How could you "wrongly interpret" a woman being raped?

    Kev

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