Defense of others?

This is a discussion on Defense of others? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by bigiceman MFS, that is one of the best treatises on the whole sheep theory I have every read. Thanks for posting that. ...

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 64

Thread: Defense of others?

  1. #31
    mfs
    mfs is offline
    New Member Array mfs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by bigiceman View Post
    MFS, that is one of the best treatises on the whole sheep theory I have every read. Thanks for posting that. I think I am going to change my signiture to include a line from it.
    You're welcome. I have read it several times, and it never gets old.

    BTW, you chose my favorite line for your sig.

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #32
    1943 - 2009
    Array Captain Crunch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    10,371
    I know many members here don't have a lot of faith in the gun magazines and periodicals and the authors that write for them. There are a few good ones, but of course there are a lot of hack writers, too.

    I have found one exception, however, that is germane to this topic. David Kenik wrote an article titled "Heroic Consequences, Questions to Ask Yourself Before Going in Defense of Others", published in the September 07 issue of Guns & Ammo Handguns.

    That issue of out of print, but the article was re-printed in Guns & Ammo Book of Personal Defense, which is currently available on the newsstands, price is $7.99. Whether you agree with the author or not, there is a great deal of food for thought in this article.

    I recommend picking up a copy.


    When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
    And the women come out to cut up what remains,
    Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
    And go to your God like a soldier.

    Rudyard Kipling


    Terry

  4. #33
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    okla
    Posts
    4,298
    Even if you are right in going to a strangers aid you could be prosecuted. Lets say you are willing to accept that.
    Are you willing to subject your family to the financial hardships involved with your defense?

    Michael

  5. #34
    jfl
    jfl is offline
    Distinguished Member Array jfl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Palm Beach County, FL
    Posts
    1,485
    Wait a minute !!!
    This is not a black and white situation.
    Between just being a witness and killing the alleged BG there is an infinite number of shades of gray.
    The situation, my abilities, the environment, are going to play in my course of action.
    If the encounter is a bank heist with number of heavily armed thugs wearing vests, I'm not going to try to be a good witness, I'm going to "disappear".
    OTOH, as one poster said, in some situations just being there or using verbal commands might defuse the problem.

    A little story that happened to us some years ago.
    Coming back home at 2 am on a desert dirt road in the middle of nowhere.
    An old Camaro is stopped in the middle of the road with a young woman bu it, waving frantically. A little farther a car parked unde the trees with several persons hiding behind.
    A typical set-up, right ? Better keep going.
    Well, we didn't. Told my wife to cover me, drew my Glock, keeping it under the tux jacket and went to investigate.
    It was a bona fide emergency, car had broke down, the other had stopped a few minutes before we arrived and the occupants were obviously waiting for us to pass.
    Long story short the girl was in tears, total panic, we took her home to her brother and all was well.
    There was no cell coverage in that area.
    If we had not stopped, and found the next morning in the news that the girl had been raped, injured, killed, whatever ...I would have a hard time living with that memory ... a very hard time.

    We were a little more than a good witness, nobody was hurt, nobody went to court, and we feel good about it instead of having to live with a life-altering memory.

    Back to the original question: there is no answer !!!
    Each case will be different, each decision will be individual.
    I am old, I had a great life, my wife can survive without me, so my risk tolerance is higher than a younger individual with a family to support.
    Death before dishonor !!!
    The first rule of a gunfight: "Don't be there !"
    The second rule: "Bring enough gun"

    jfl
    (NRA Life Member/Instructor - GOA - IDPA - GSSF - ex-IHMSA)

  6. #35
    Member Array bigiceman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fort Worth, Texas
    Posts
    491
    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Even if you are right in going to a strangers aid you could be prosecuted. Lets say you are willing to accept that.
    Are you willing to subject your family to the financial hardships involved with your defense?
    Yes.

    If that is not your answer, why isn't it? I don't mean that as a slight or a challenge, just a question. When the golden rule said do unto others as you would have them do unto you it didn't mean only if it was convenient or easy. I want to think that if I was in dire straights that everyone else would not shun me just because they were not a member of my family and didn't want to get involved.

    Thirty people on a bus in the Netherlands watched as three young men savagely beat another passenger to death. They beat him because he had the gaul to actually say something to them as they were rude and mean to a passenger on the bus. The passengers stood up for him in return and exited the bus as quickly as possible. 10:1 odds and they all left him to die. I don't care if they are 1:3 odds and I am unarmed. The good people of the world cannot stand by and watch other good people be vicimized. If they do, they are standing on the sideline watching, while they wait their turn.
    But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...
    "Baa."
    LTC(RET) Dave Grossman

    Revolutionary War Veterans Association Shooter Qualification: Cook

  7. #36
    Member Array shingman2345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Central,SC
    Posts
    44

    Why do we have a ccw?

    This is a very hard question to answer but when I look back when I went to get my ccwp I asked myself why am I here. The answer because I want to protect my family and myself but then I said to myself what about others? Don,t they have a right to be protected? The police can,t protect everyone even though the law of the land makes it seems as though. Now I know that we can,t be the police but are we to just stand by and be a so call witness to a violent crime and wounder if we are going to get arrested. All life is precious an we as ccp holders have a obligation to protect that life as though it was our family and love ones. I could not live with myself if I witnessed a violent crime taking place and do nothing about it. With power comes great responsibility!

  8. #37
    Member Array top_gizmo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Lebanon, MO
    Posts
    154
    To all the good witnesses out there:

    How would you feel if a loved one was killed while I watched as a good witness and you later found that I was standing 25yrd away with a concealed XD-45?!
    Semper Fi!

    Engineers Up!

  9. #38
    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Florence, SC
    Posts
    7,967
    Quote Originally Posted by bigiceman View Post


    The good people of the world cannot stand by and watch other good people be vicimized.
    I think this kinda says it for me.
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

  10. #39
    Senior Member Array wjh2657's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Lafayette, Tennessee
    Posts
    1,167
    "One can always use lethal force to defend a third person, if the third person could lawfully use lethal force to defend themselves."

    Most state laws read to the effect: "One can always use lethal force to defend a third person, if it reasonable to assume the third person would lawfully use lethal force to defend themselves."

    What the difference of one letter in the spelling means:

    If the woman being raped later states on the stand that she doesn't believe in taking a life and would not have killed or even shot the rapist to stop him, you are a criminal and are going to do do hard time. There is no way you can "reasonably read her mind." You have no defense, so forget falling on the mercy of the jury or judge. You are a BG and are going to jail. Prosecutors become Governors making cases like this stick against well meaning upright citizens!

    The U.S. Supreme Court, in many decisions, has determined that the individual is responsible for their own safety. This is extended to your own spouse and children as your "individual" responsibility. Not even the police are legally responsible for protecting others, only for investigating the aftermath and apprehending the perps.

    I spent thirty years of my life in the USMC defending this nation. But this nation saw fit to enact laws that prohibit me from defending other citizens at will.

    Morally I detest that I am forced to make this stand. But my family comes first. I will clear leather if my family or myself is in danger of death, otherwise the snap stays snapped and I try to be a good witness. Tell your hero stories to Bubba, your new sweetheart in prison, because that is where the prosecutors and judges are paid to send you.

    If you want it down and cold, if yours are in danger, it is your responsibility to protect them. If you are not there to do it, shame on you. I don't like it either, but it is the law, and if you can't obey the law, you have no authority to carry.
    Retired Marine, Retired School Teacher, Independent voter, Goldwater Conservative.

  11. #40
    Member Array LiveLFF's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    183
    I'm not sure how I will answer this question hypothetically and how I would actually act in person.

    I have run into the ocean and drug someone back to the shore before a lifeguard spotted them, the lifeguard then took over.

    I consider myself someone who would put themselves in harms way to save another human life. But, then again, I have no children to raise yet, or a wife to come home too. My attitude will probably change in the future.

    Shooting someone is a bit of a different story though. Running out and swimming someone back to shore. I didn't go through anyone else to save that person, just the ocean, and it can't come after me in court.

  12. #41
    Senior Member Array KenInColo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Western Colorado
    Posts
    991
    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Situations happen quick.

    The action may be over before you even know whom is whom. We can plan and run scenarios in our mind all day and night long, but no two situations are ever going to be exactly the same.

    Here's a link to some interesting reading to help you make your decision.

    Commentary by Evan Marshall

    BTW: I'm a LEO and my general rule of thumb is to be a good witness if I am off the clock.

    Biker
    Good article.

    I once was the victim of an assault on the NYC subway (#7 Line, Grand Central stop; not really a dangerous area). A deranged, homeless guy came after me just for making eye contact w/him. I really think he was trying to push me onto the tracks. There were about 2 dozen "good witnesses" who did absolutely nothing to help me.

    Fortunately, I was able to put the guy on the ground. To keep him there, every time he tried to get up, I kicked him in the ribs/head (I was not about to wrestle w/him anymore than necessary). The NYC Transit cops showed up after I had kicked him about a half-dozen times. All of the "good witnesses" except one woman told the cops that I was attacked by the homeless guy. The woman wanted me arrested for excessive force. She told them "He [me] just kept kicking him and kicking him." I didn't know it at the time but I was just neutralizing the threat.

    After the police cuffed him they searched him, and found a switchblade.

    Turned out the homeless guy had beaten up another citizen a couple hundred feet up the platform right before he came after me.

    The cops took my info & story and let me go.
    An armed populace are called citizens.
    An unarmed populace are called subjects.

  13. #42
    Ex Member Array FN1910's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    SC
    Posts
    1,235
    The key in all of these hypothetical stories is that you better know the whole story before you go riding in on your white horse to save the day. Just be sure who the BG is before you start shooting.

  14. #43
    Member Array bigiceman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fort Worth, Texas
    Posts
    491
    Quote Originally Posted by wjh2657 View Post
    If you want it down and cold, if yours are in danger, it is your responsibility to protect them. If you are not there to do it, shame on you. I don't like it either, but it is the law, and if you can't obey the law, you have no authority to carry.
    I will obey the law. I only got the CCW because it was the law. Your narrow interpretation seems to have come at the expense of someone being unjustly persecuted for doing the right thing. That doesn't make it the law. Repeat, that doesn't make it the law. We have to know the law in the area we live and carry. We cannot always know the ambition of the district attorney and how they plan to make a name for themselves.

    You may be perfectly justified in just standing by and watching, "being a good witness". That doesn't make it right. If you are worried about being persecuted for doing the right thing why carry at all? No good can come of doing the right thing.

    Do unto others.... When you are getting the crap beaten out of you, by a bunch of thugs who got the drop on you, do you want help, or good witnesses?
    But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...
    "Baa."
    LTC(RET) Dave Grossman

    Revolutionary War Veterans Association Shooter Qualification: Cook

  15. #44
    Member Array bigiceman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fort Worth, Texas
    Posts
    491
    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Here's a link to some interesting reading to help you make your decision.

    Commentary by Evan Marshall
    This is a good article and the best part of it is the acessment of the situation and appropriate force.
    But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...
    "Baa."
    LTC(RET) Dave Grossman

    Revolutionary War Veterans Association Shooter Qualification: Cook

  16. #45
    Ex Member Array FN1910's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    SC
    Posts
    1,235
    Those who think the mere display of a weapon will stop hostilities are naïve in the extreme.
    Actually I think this is the best part of it. NEVER DRAW YOUR GUN TO SCARE SOMEBODY. There is a thread on another board from someone wanting to know which crimes is it legal to draw your gun to stop. The answer is NONE.

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Best Defense
    By C hawk Glock in forum Defensive Books, Video & References
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: November 3rd, 2010, 06:24 PM
  2. Best Defense
    By rachilders in forum Home (And Away From Home) Defense Discussion
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: July 15th, 2010, 08:37 PM
  3. LMS Defense Home Defense - Defensive Medical COMBO / Yuba City, CA / March 8-10, 2008
    By Tony Siciliano in forum Defensive Carry & Tactical Training
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: February 6th, 2008, 12:55 PM
  4. .38 spl or .357 mag for self defense?
    By Joey in forum Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: January 1st, 2008, 11:13 AM
  5. FN Five-Seven for self defense?
    By skystud1 in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: November 6th, 2007, 12:02 PM

Search tags for this page

can physical force be used to protect a 3rd person?
,
see state v. havican, 213 conn. 593, 600-601 (1990) (concluding that the threat of great bodily harm and the threat of s
,
third person self defense
,

what are some elements of defense for someeone who come to the aid of another?

Click on a term to search for related topics.