Defense of others?

This is a discussion on Defense of others? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by wjh2657 "One can always use lethal force to defend a third person, if the third person could lawfully use lethal force to ...

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Thread: Defense of others?

  1. #61
    Member Array Rebmik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjh2657 View Post
    "One can always use lethal force to defend a third person, if the third person could lawfully use lethal force to defend themselves."

    Most state laws read to the effect: "One can always use lethal force to defend a third person, if it reasonable to assume the third person would lawfully use lethal force to defend themselves."

    What the difference of one letter in the spelling means:

    If the woman being raped later states on the stand that she doesn't believe in taking a life and would not have killed or even shot the rapist to stop him, you are a criminal and are going to do do hard time. There is no way you can "reasonably read her mind." You have no defense, so forget falling on the mercy of the jury or judge. You are a BG and are going to jail. Prosecutors become Governors making cases like this stick against well meaning upright citizens!

    The U.S. Supreme Court, in many decisions, has determined that the individual is responsible for their own safety. This is extended to your own spouse and children as your "individual" responsibility. Not even the police are legally responsible for protecting others, only for investigating the aftermath and apprehending the perps.

    I spent thirty years of my life in the USMC defending this nation. But this nation saw fit to enact laws that prohibit me from defending other citizens at will.

    Morally I detest that I am forced to make this stand. But my family comes first. I will clear leather if my family or myself is in danger of death, otherwise the snap stays snapped and I try to be a good witness. Tell your hero stories to Bubba, your new sweetheart in prison, because that is where the prosecutors and judges are paid to send you.

    If you want it down and cold, if yours are in danger, it is your responsibility to protect them. If you are not there to do it, shame on you. I don't like it either, but it is the law, and if you can't obey the law, you have no authority to carry.
    You may be right about not shooting a rapist.....but would you at least pull him off of her???

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  3. #62
    Senior Member Array wjh2657's Avatar
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    First I am going to make sure it is a rape, not just a wild date gone bad because a witness showed up. Once determined that it is a rape, I, will find something (other than a gun) that will give an advantage and is on the scene (I didn't bring it with me)and beat the crap out of the guy. But, I am not going to shoot him unless he has a weapon and has shown the desire to use it. Rape at knife point or gunpoint gets into the area of stopping a felon in the act and the law pretty much backs up the shooter. No weapon on rapist means you have to use something less than deadly force. ( According to the U.S. Supreme Court:rape is not a life threatening situation in itself.)

    I have stopped many times, and will continue to do so, to help people. What we were talking about primarily is getting into a shooting match to terminate a gun fight between two other parties. The problem enters in that for you to legally help in a deadly force situation, it cannot be a mutual altercation. Then you are just taking sides in a fight. (Probably get charged and sued by both parties or their survivors)

    Unless I have full particulars and am 100% sure of the rights and desires of the victim (must be a victim!) I will leave the piece in the leather , clearing leather only if one of them starts shooting at me.
    Retired Marine, Retired School Teacher, Independent voter, Goldwater Conservative.

  4. #63
    Member Array tflhndn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjh2657 View Post
    ( According to the U.S. Supreme Court:rape is not a life threatening situation in itself.)
    In many places (North Carolina for one) a person may use deadly force to prevent their own death, serious bodily injury or sexual assault.

    While I would not simply draw and fire at what appeared to be a rape in progress, If I truly beleived it was a rape, I would draw and use verbal commands. Since I had a reasonable beleif that a rape was in progressm and the victim has the legal right to use deadly froce to prevent a rape, then I am protected from a brandishing charge.
    I certainly would not fire until and unless I had more information.

    But the biggest question is would I interview? Yes, I would, and I would almost certainly do it with my firearm drawn.
    Last edited by tflhndn; October 30th, 2008 at 03:45 PM. Reason: addition

  5. #64
    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    What are the 4 rules of self defense you should have been taught in class in Minnesota. I'm a MN instructor so I know what they are for MN.

    1 - Be a reluctant participant.
    2 - Clearly show you had considered retreat and did retreat if possible.
    3 - you must fear great bodily harm to yourself OR ANOTHER, or death.
    4 - Any use of force must be reasonable.

    So can you draw your gun and shoot to protect another person in self-defense? If the situation meets the 4 rules yes.
    Must you draw your gun and shoot to protect another person in self-defense. NO! That decision is up to you.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

    Certified Instructor for Minnesota Carry Permit
    NRA Pistol and Personal Protection Insrtuctor
    Utah Permit Certified Instructor

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