"My" Improperly Handled Traffic Stop. - Page 11

"My" Improperly Handled Traffic Stop.

This is a discussion on "My" Improperly Handled Traffic Stop. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Landric I never said it amounted to probable cause. I said it allowed for a protective sweep, for which reasonable suspicion is ...

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Thread: "My" Improperly Handled Traffic Stop.

  1. #151
    Member Array chaosrob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Landric View Post
    I never said it amounted to probable cause. I said it allowed for a protective sweep, for which reasonable suspicion is the standard. Case law supports it, see my previous post with the link. Unless Missouri has more restrictive state law or state case law, its legal in Missouri since its supported by US Supreme Court rulings.

    What people don't seem to understand about probable cause is that probable cause is the standard for arrest. If an officer sees, smells, or otherwise senses something that is illegal, then the officer has the legal justification to arrest without further investigation.

    For instance, if I stop a car and smell a strong odor of marijuana, I have the legal authority to arrest all the occupants for possession based on the smell alone. However, as a practical matter, I wouldn't do that until such a time as I recovered evidence to support my charge in court.

    I think people often mistake the two standards, reasonable suspicion supports detention and additional investigation; probable cause supports arrest without further investigation.



    I have no idea what you were trying to say here.
    sorry, my keyboard is sticking on my laptop due to a juice spill.

    I meant to say I have never met a leo that asked permission to do what he already has the legal right to do. Meaning he will just do it, not ask permission.

    In Missouri they can search what is in plain sight, nothing that is locked or out of view (consoles, glove boxes, etc)


  2. #152
    Member Array bmwaddicted's Avatar
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    Sorry about the spelling, I forgot to edit my post. I have looked at case law and will point you to numerous cases that were thrown out in the appeals court over violation of Terry and vehicle searches if you want. I want to know how you would determine sufficient probable cause on a routine traffic stop? You can't make them wait for a dog. The only way you can use a dog legally without them consenting to be detained is if the dog is with the officer that made the stop. How is a traffic stop a valid reason to detain them until a dog arrives? Most people that get screwed on their 4th amendment rights don't know their rights. I do, and try to tell anyone that will listen about the rights they have. To anyone pulled over I would suggest to NEVER consent to anything but a terry search. When an individual is asked to step out of a vehicle they should turn off thier car, make sure the windows are rolled up, and lock it after exiting the vehicle. If the officer wants to pat you down and disarm you, let them. Do not let them enter pockets of personal enclosed belongings. If they ask to search the vehicle, tell them no. If they inquire why you won't consent to a search, then tell them you're exercising your 4th amendment right. If they make you wait for a dog, then tell them regardless they can't search. If they tell you they are going to search anyway make them enter you vehicle by force and get a lawyer immediately. The officer WILL be disciplined or fired. Also the department could be open to a nasty civil lawsuit, esspecially if nothing illegal is found.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaosrob View Post

    I meant to say I have never met a leo that asked permission to do what he already has the legal right to do. Meaning he will just do it, not ask permission.
    I bet you have met one, because we all do it. Getting consent when we are able to do so with consent or not has more reasons than simple permission.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwaddicted View Post
    Sorry about the spelling, I forgot to edit my post. I have looked at case law and will point you to numerous cases that were thrown out in the appeals court over violation of Terry and vehicle searches if you want. I want to know how you would determine sufficient probable cause on a routine traffic stop? You can't make them wait for a dog. The only way you can use a dog legally without them consenting to be detained is if the dog is with the officer that made the stop. How is a traffic stop a valid reason to detain them until a dog arrives? Most people that get screwed on their 4th amendment rights don't know their rights. I do, and try to tell anyone that will listen about the rights they have. To anyone pulled over I would suggest to NEVER consent to anything but a terry search. When an individual is asked to step out of a vehicle they should turn off thier car, make sure the windows are rolled up, and lock it after exiting the vehicle. If the officer wants to pat you down and disarm you, let them. Do not let them enter pockets of personal enclosed belongings. If they ask to search the vehicle, tell them no. If they inquire why you won't consent to a search, then tell them you're exercising your 4th amendment right. If they make you wait for a dog, then tell them regardless they can't search. If they tell you they are going to search anyway make them enter you vehicle by force and get a lawyer immediately. The officer WILL be disciplined or fired. Also the department could be open to a nasty civil lawsuit, esspecially if nothing illegal is found.
    Why would a dog be called when the subject matter is guns, not drugs or explosives?
    "Just blame Sixto"

  5. #155
    Member Array bmwaddicted's Avatar
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    Im just trying to cover all my bases in this matter. They could use the dog as a way of gaining access saying it smelled drugs in the vehicle. I have seen witnessed a dog hit on a car that had nothing it before. When someone refuses to a search I'll admit that they are probobly concealing contraband, but im not going to overstep my authority to find it. It's my opinion that the true criminals will get caught slipping eventually, and I'll nail them legally.

  6. #156
    Senior Member Array Landric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwaddicted View Post
    Sorry about the spelling, I forgot to edit my post. I have looked at case law and will point you to numerous cases that were thrown out in the appeals court over violation of Terry and vehicle searches if you want. I want to know how you would determine sufficient probable cause on a routine traffic stop? You can't make them wait for a dog. The only way you can use a dog legally without them consenting to be detained is if the dog is with the officer that made the stop. How is a traffic stop a valid reason to detain them until a dog arrives? Most people that get screwed on their 4th amendment rights don't know their rights. I do, and try to tell anyone that will listen about the rights they have. To anyone pulled over I would suggest to NEVER consent to anything but a terry search. When an individual is asked to step out of a vehicle they should turn off thier car, make sure the windows are rolled up, and lock it after exiting the vehicle. If the officer wants to pat you down and disarm you, let them. Do not let them enter pockets of personal enclosed belongings. If they ask to search the vehicle, tell them no. If they inquire why you won't consent to a search, then tell them you're exercising your 4th amendment right. If they make you wait for a dog, then tell them regardless they can't search. If they tell you they are going to search anyway make them enter you vehicle by force and get a lawyer immediately. The officer WILL be disciplined or fired. Also the department could be open to a nasty civil lawsuit, esspecially if nothing illegal is found.

    You really need to be careful offering internet advice like this. Sure, there are plenty of cases that are thrown out based on search and seizure, there are also plenty that are not.

    If you are going to choose to exercise your 4th amendment rights, you need to understand what those rights are. Resisting lawful actions of LEOs will get you arrested. That includes doing things like locking your car and refusing to allow the LEO access when the LEO has a legal right to access the vehicle.

    I'm not telling people not to exercise their rights, just to be aware of what those rights are and what they are not. You are only protected from unreasonable search and seizure, not all search and seizure.

    As any officer who has been through a basic academy can tell you, it is perfectly OK to detain someone for a reasonable time to conduct the business of the stop, and during that time, if a K9 unit can respond, they can conduct an exterior sniff of the vehicle in question without any reasonable suspicion or probable cause.

    K9s can and do sometimes alert to vehicles that do not have any contraband in them. The reason? The vehicles recently did have such contraband inside them and the smell lingers.
    -Landric

    "The Engine could still smile...it seemed to scare them" -Felix

  7. #157
    Member Array bmwaddicted's Avatar
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    Well I am an LEO, so Im not worried about being arrested. Also I stand behind everything I've said. The camera in the crusier will record the extreme violation of their rights when they break a window out or take the keys by force. Thats will be excellent evidence to get a cop off the streets that refuses to follow the law. It's sad to me to see this trend of our rights deteriating everyday.

  8. #158
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Here is an interesting video about your rights during a traffic stop.
    YouTube - BUSTED: The Citizen's Guide to Surviving Police Encounters

    Michael

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwaddicted View Post
    Well I am an LEO, so Im not worried about being arrested.
    Why not? No offense, but you're not presenting Kansas officers in the best light. I'll leave it at that, no need to get into a peepee match. Those who know already know and thats good enough for me.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  10. #160
    VIP Member Array stormbringerr's Avatar
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    for the most part it seems a lot simpler and safer to let the chl holder just remain concealed and armed during a traffic stop.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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  11. #161
    Member Array jlangton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stormbringerr View Post
    for the most part it seems a lot simpler and safer to let the chl holder just remain concealed and armed during a traffic stop.
    Exactly.
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  12. #162
    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwaddicted View Post
    Only a Terry search (otherwise known as a pat down) is legal unless given permission to go into pockets or enclosed personal belongings.(purses, coats, briefcase, backpack ect.)
    So if I pat you down on a Terry frisk, feel a gun in your pocket, are you saying that I wouldn't be able to go in that pocket to safeguard that weapon until the stop is over? From my academy, I was taught Terry frisks are for officer safety. Did yours teach differently?Curious.
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

  13. #163
    Senior Member Array Landric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwaddicted View Post
    Well I am an LEO, so Im not worried about being arrested. Also I stand behind everything I've said. The camera in the crusier will record the extreme violation of their rights when they break a window out or take the keys by force. Thats will be excellent evidence to get a cop off the streets that refuses to follow the law. It's sad to me to see this trend of our rights deteriating everyday.
    Being an LEO does not make you exempt from arrest.

    Since you offered, lets see some case law supporting your position. I posted mine already.

    Quote Originally Posted by stormbringerr View Post
    for the most part it seems a lot simpler and safer to let the chl holder just remain concealed and armed during a traffic stop.
    I agree completely, which is why I don't disarm CHP holders unless there is something "more" to the encounter.

    Quote Originally Posted by bmwaddicted View Post
    ...I want to know how you would determine sufficient probable cause on a routine traffic stop?...

    If you were an LEO, you'd know the answer to this question, and the others you posed in the post I took this quote from. Its basic academy stuff, not advanced search and seizure.
    -Landric

    "The Engine could still smile...it seemed to scare them" -Felix

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Landric View Post
    I agree completely, which is why I don't disarm CHP holders unless there is something "more" to the encounter.
    I think you're in the majority. I don't mind my "duty to inform" down here in SC. I've been through numerous checkpoints etc... and I always hand my DL and CWP over together. I don't act like I have some stupid CWP cape flapping in the breeze like superman nor do I look like I have a 6 year old duct -taped in the trunk behind me and generally about all I get is a glance to match my face to the permits. Sometimes I get a simple "Are you?" to which I reply yes sir. There was one time I almost said yes out of habit and I wasn't carrying!!! Other times they just look up at me and go back to the matter at hand. For some reason I must just be a likable guy.
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  15. #165
    Senior Member Array ICTsnub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwaddicted View Post
    Well I am an LEO, so Im not worried about being arrested. Also I stand behind everything I've said. The camera in the crusier will record the extreme violation of their rights when they break a window out or take the keys by force.
    Wichita Police Launch Dash Cam Pilot Project

    Glad you're above the law.

    And only 8 squad cars in this city have cameras.

    I guess I will stick with trying to follow the rules, and being polite and honest.

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