"My" Improperly Handled Traffic Stop. - Page 3

"My" Improperly Handled Traffic Stop.

This is a discussion on "My" Improperly Handled Traffic Stop. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Sorry this went the way it did. With my loved one in the vehicle and him pointing it towards the vehicle must have been a ...

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Thread: "My" Improperly Handled Traffic Stop.

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array Rossman's Avatar
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    Sorry this went the way it did. With my loved one in the vehicle and him pointing it towards the vehicle must have been a trial itself.
    The only thing I was asked in my first traffic incident was "where is the gun?" (IWB 4:00) and "why do you carry". I answered for personal protection and that was basically the end of it. He never asked to see it. Nothing.


  2. #32
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    Sounds like you handled things about as well as you could have been expected.

    Only time I've had LEO interaction in a vehicle while carrying I was asked to disarm myself, and the cop did have a shocked look on his face when he saw the 1911 (I'm not sure what he was expecting to see, but apparently it wasn't a 1911), but he never handled the pistol.

    Seems like the cop could use more training, but then again, disarming someone by yourself is usually a tricky situation.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

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  3. #33
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    The issue of police training is concerning. We had an altogether different situation in town yesterday which has caused the police dept. to review its training and policy. Not gun related, but it shows how folks can forget the rules.

    The son of the former county attorney was arrested for a misdemeanor. It really doesn't matter the specifics, except that there is a rule requiring the officer to actually see the offense or ask a judge for a warrant (for this particular class of misdemeanors). Well the arrest was made without seeking the warrant, without observing the offense, and of course dad got into the picture and the "mistake" was duly noted by the chief and the newspapers.

    There's a lot to know and remember in almost all professions, and our officers are only human. Stuff happens.

  4. #34
    Member Array LiveLFF's Avatar
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    The only thing I could of thought of would be to let him know "I have a concealed permit, and yes, I am armed".

    But.. after he handled the situation like he did I dont think it would of mattered, if he thought you were a criminal he sure didnt show it by leaning over the seat.

  5. #35
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 820Larry View Post
    ...I have known way too many good officers who only handled a firearm on qualification day. The rest of the year they never touched it.......I have seen officers who carried a Colt revolver as a duty weapon not know how to open the cyl. on a S/W....Unfortunally,most departments do not have an adequate training budget and the officers get the mininum that the state requires. My hat is off to you and Lima for the way you handled the situation..
    Quote Originally Posted by ppkheat View Post
    Him handling your 1911 is scary, especially asking about the de-cocker....
    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    ...Unfortunately most LEO's are not "gun guys"...
    I have spoken to several LE that knew very little about firearms. I'm not an expert, but at the very least I've spent time learning how to arm and unarm every firearm I've had the pleasure to hold. Ya, I'm a gun shop looky lou. I just feel it is important when you are around people with firearms to know the basics.

    As for how JD & Lima acted during the stop, IMHO, flawless. Very lucky that firearm did not go off.

    The LE was very foolish (almost sheep like). It is like someone being so focused on the right hand they don't see the left (or round house kick).

    Given that situation, the LE should have just asked for you ID and backed away from the car. With that said, I feel for the LEO. Every stop you have to be asking, what will this be.

  6. #36
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    I cannot believe in this day and age an LEO putting himself in that situation,if he doesn't get retraining and change his ways there is a very good chance the newspaper will one day read LEO killed during traffic stop.As far as the gun handling I carry a 1911 and that is one thing that would scare me to death is somebody trying to disarm me and clear a weapon they know nothing about,In the two stops since I been carrying I have never been disarmed or had an LEO freak out after being informed I had a CHL and was armed.
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
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  7. #37
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    Very poorly conducted stop and a very pathetically poorly trained LEO. Really does not say much for the Supervisor that you called EITHER because the officer certainly was in obvious need of some serious supervision...that he also obviously never received.
    Wow...I read that twice looking for anything he did right. Not much if anything at all.
    Pretty doggone bad and could have been lots worse had he NDed.

    Glad that you both survived that incident.
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  8. #38
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    Wow JD. That was a scary one. It wouldn't have made me happy either to have my pregnant wife being swept by my own gun in the hands of someone who does not know what he is doing. Good God.

    But, you as well and I know, there are quite a lot of LEO's out there who are not "gun" people. I have always thought that was weird but I'm sure that is just because I am a gun person and I find it strange that anyone wouldn't be interested in them.

    I once talked to the Armorer at the Mobile Police Department in the mid 90's and he told me a story about an officer who brought his whole duty belt in to be looked at because he couldn't get the gun out of the holster. What he found was the gun was "glued" into the holster by a spilled chocolate milkshake. When asked, the officer admitted spilling a shake on himself 3 weeks before! He had not removed the gun in over 3 weeks.

    I'm glad it turned out good for you and Lima. I hope the Sheriff takes you up on your offer to instruct his department.
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  9. #39
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    Well, your the other side of the equation that makes bad situations turn out good. Police contacts turn out better when at least one side is professional. By being the professional you assisted the officer through his crisis.

    Good job, hopefully he learned something out of the encounter.

    It's a sad thing thing that there is not a whole block of instruction on conducting traffic stops with a CFP holder at the academy or during inservice.

    Part of the problem is that they only have some much time to knock the naiveté out of the officer & reguardless if your a small town officer, a rural deputy sheriff or working for a large (read violent) city agency, the training is set up by the state and is the same (In most states)

    And most academies and agencies only teach officers about the firearms which they are assigned. This guy was only taught about firearms that have decockers. I'll bet he getting a ribbing on that one.

    During this thread someone mentioned that he has never heard of a ccw holder shooting a police officer. It did happen in Flagstaff. The officer did not know the shooter was a CCW holder & it was not a traffic stop.

    This might be better for a different thread...


    Mentally ill man bought gun legally


    By LARRY HENDRICKS
    Assistant City Editor
    Thursday, September 13, 2007

    The mentally ill man who was shot and killed by police after he shot and wounded a Flagstaff detective bought three guns legally two years prior to his death.

    Not only did he pass a required background check on the first gun he bought, he was also able to obtain a concealed weapons permit from the state. He was able to buy the guns because of a "loophole" in the system regarding mental illness, says the gun store owner who sold Mark E. Steiger the handguns.

    The gun Steiger used to shoot the detective is a high-velocity, vest-penetrating weapon dubbed by some a "cop killer."

    But Steiger did not have the high-velocity ammunition, according to the store owner.

    Steiger, 38, was shot by police Monday afternoon in a wooded area near the west side Coconino Estates neighborhood. Prior to police opening fire, he had shot several times at officers and wounded Detective Todd Bishop, who had attempted to subdue him alive with a Taser.

    The steps leading up to Steiger's death began Saturday, when his family called police wanting him to get help for his mental illness. Responding officers encountered Steiger on his porch armed with a gun. Steiger fled from police and hid out until Sunday, when he opened fire on an unoccupied police car in his neighborhood. A multi-agency search ensued.

    STEIGER ISSUED A CONCEALED WEAPONS PERMIT

    Steiger, although suffering a mental illness that required medication, bought three handguns at Ruff's Sporting Goods in Flagstaff in 2005.

    The first purchase was April 25, said Herb Bridgman, co-owner of Ruff's. He purchased a weapon that was the same caliber used to wound Bishop -- an FN 57.

    Going through his FBI background check, Steiger's purchase was placed on "delayed," Bridgman said. A delay means an FBI examiner makes a more thorough assessment of Steiger's background. After three days, if the store does not hear back from the examiner, the sale is allowed to proceed, according to the law. Steiger received his handgun on April 29, 2005

    According to court records, Steiger's criminal history at the time included two misdemeanor convictions in 2000, which does not prevent a person in Arizona from owning a gun.

    One of his convictions was for carrying a concealed weapon without a permit.

    Steiger's second purchase, a 9 mm handgun, came a month later on May 28, Bridgman said. He did not have to go through a background check because he had received a permit from the state to carry a concealed weapon.

    To receive a concealed weapons permit in 2005, applicants had to undergo 16 hours of instruction, submit a set of fingerprints for a background check and pass a written exam.

    On Aug. 4, Steiger purchased a third gun -- another FN 57. No background check was required because he had the concealed weapons permit.

    NO COURT ADJUDICATION OF MENTAL ILLNESS

    One of the questions on the U.S. Department of Justice document used to track firearms transactions states: "Have you ever been adjudicated as mentally defective (which includes having been adjudicated incompetent to manager your own affairs) or have you ever been committed to a mental institution?

    Bridgman explained that unless a court has determined a person mentally defective, even if mentally ill and receiving medication, that information will not show up in a background check.

    Information about a doctor treating a person for a mental illness and prescribing medication will not show up in a background check, and is actually protected medical information by law.

    That's a loophole, Bridgman said, that means gun store owners cannot legally prevent a person with a serious mental illness from purchasing a gun.

    GUN ORIGINALLY INTENDED FOR POLICE

    The weapon Steiger used to wound Bishop was originally intended to be used by law enforcement and military to fire small bullets at high velocity to penetrate bulletproof vests.

    The weapon has a stigma around it. Anti-gun groups have tried to get the FN 57 banned, calling the weapon a "cop killer" because of the vest-penetrating capability.

    A civilian version is available, although the vest-penetrating ammunition is not.

    "He did not have that ammunition," Bridgman said.

    Even his store is not allowed to purchase the vest-penetrating ammunition, he added.

    Bridgman went on to say that other weapons on the market have much more power and similar velocity of bullets.

    Those who buy FN 57 pistols typically do so to target practice and hunt "varmints," or animals deemed to be a nuisance by humans.



    The sad part of this story is that I took the first FN away from him when he was arrested in my jurisdiction for a acouple of Misd charges, but it was clear he was unstable.

    I also contact the AZ DPS CCW Permit office and informed them of Stieger. He still retained his permit.

    I know that this isn't related to this thread, other than what would have happen if the deputy had stopped him and was this unprofessional and tactically unsafe?

    The deputy should count his luck stars that he stopped a professional good guy and not a professional bad guy.


    And just a note, every agency in my area(Except highway patrol) carries a 1911, some are issued and some are personal.
    "Arms in the hands of individual citizens may be used at individual discretion..in private self defense." John Adams

  10. #40
    Distinguished Member Array GWRedDragon's Avatar
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    Holy cow, and everyone on this forum said that the Five-seveN is underpowered and the civilian ammo can't penetrate anything!

    Anyway, one incident doesn't change the fact that CCW permit holders are 6 times less likely to commit a violent offense... (gotta love that 'gun facts' site someone linked to earlier)
    "Trust in God with hand on sword" -Inscription on my family's coat of arms from medieval England
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  11. #41
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    JD, I'm glad you, Lima and Garret are alright.

    You did everything right, as far as I can tell. maybe you could've been more forthcoming in your responses, but that's water under the bridge.

    Most LEO's aren't "gun guys". My Brother certainly wasn't, and he could put "notches" on his gun if he wanted to. The gun is just a heavy tool that gets in the way until you need it, and then you need it RIGHT NOW! Most of my co-workers don't carry off duty and I'm seen as a "freak" because I love to shoot.

    I do think some "remedial training" is in order for this officer and he should go buy a Lotto Ticket, as he clearly got lucky, having stopped you and Mrs. Lima instead of Billy Badbutt and Mrs. Methskank. If I was Mrs. Lima I would be the one down at the agency raising a big stink about the muzzle control this officer exhibited, or lack there of. Nothing scares an Administrator more than a pregnant female that won't be easily mollified.


    Biker
    Last edited by JD; November 12th, 2008 at 09:11 AM. Reason: Fixed bold font tags.

  12. #42
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    I do agree,Officers need to learn that the odds are greatly in their favor for a non issue traffic stop when they contact a CFP holder. They just need to not freak out.
    "Arms in the hands of individual citizens may be used at individual discretion..in private self defense." John Adams

  13. #43
    Senior Member Array bzdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    I think that when a police officer asks "are you armed?" something along the lines of "I have a carry permit and I'm carrying" is probably a better choice than just saying "yes".
    I'd suggest short as possible. "I have a permit and I'm carrying". Or as others have mentioned, (and probably better) have the DL and permit already out and simply hand it to him.

    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    Besides, you never know, had I answered like that, I could have gotten an reply of "I didn't ask about a _____ permit, I asked if you were armed?!?
    Perhaps, but even if it annoys him, the info is out there then and with luck, it should increase the probability that the interaction will go reasonably.

    Quote Originally Posted by GWRedDragon View Post
    As soon as he started pointing the gun at the pregnant wife I would be saying loudly "PLEASE POINT THE GUN IN A SAFE DIRECTION".
    I think you really want quiet, not loud. De-escalate. "Please don't point the gun at my wife." or "You are pointing the gun at my wife." Don't agitate or alarm the person trying to figure out the loaded firearm...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rossman View Post
    The only thing I was asked in my first traffic incident was "where is the gun?" (IWB 4:00) [...] and that was basically the end of it. He never asked to see it. Nothing.
    If I was a LEO, I think this would be my personal perspective on the best action.

    If you have proper documentation and told me where the firearm is located, any moving around to show it, or handling of it, only increases the potential of something going wrong.

    On top of that, I would think you should assume *everyone* is armed even if they tell you they are not.

    And even when someone tells you where a weapon is, keep in mind they still might be lying.

    -john

  14. #44
    Distinguished Member Array GWRedDragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bzdog View Post
    I think you really want quiet, not loud. De-escalate. "Please don't point the gun at my wife." or "You are pointing the gun at my wife." Don't agitate or alarm the person trying to figure out the loaded firearm...
    Good point. I guess what I mean to say is that I would convey a sense of urgency when I said that...not that I would be confrontational about it.
    "Trust in God with hand on sword" -Inscription on my family's coat of arms from medieval England
    ---Carry options: G26/MTAC, PF9/MiniTuck, PPK/Pocket, USP40/OWB---
    ---NOTE: I am not an expert. If I ever start acting like a know-it-all, please call me on it immediately. ---

  15. #45
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    That unnamed officer is in my prayers. He's trying to do something good but (for lack of training) putting himself and others in danger. The Sheriff is failing him, and could end up with an officer or innocent citizen who is seriously injured (or worse). And the rest of us will hear from the brady bunch about how unsafe guns are ... even in the hands of highly trained professionals.

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