"My" Improperly Handled Traffic Stop. - Page 4

"My" Improperly Handled Traffic Stop.

This is a discussion on "My" Improperly Handled Traffic Stop. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; seems to me his safety would have been better served with you being belted and in the car. He could have shot someone!...

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Thread: "My" Improperly Handled Traffic Stop.

  1. #46
    Senior Member Array preachertim's Avatar
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    seems to me his safety would have been better served with you being belted and in the car. He could have shot someone!
    Why Would A Preacher ever need a Gun? Its Not for the Sheep , its for the Wolves!

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  2. #47
    JD [OP]
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Very poorly conducted stop and a very pathetically poorly trained LEO. Really does not say much for the Supervisor that you called EITHER because the officer certainly was in obvious need of some serious supervision...that he also obviously never received.
    Wow...I read that twice looking for anything he did right. Not much if anything at all.
    Pretty doggone bad and could have been lots worse had he NDed.

    Glad that you both survived that incident.
    One thing he did right which I didn't mention was "finger printing" the back of the vehicle above the tail light.

    AND...while the whole thing was a little "tense" I never felt that the officer was out of line and other than the poor handling skills, and being taken aback about me being armed, he conducted himself in a polite professional manner, he didn't yell, he didn't call for back up, he didn't draw, he didn't have me get on the ground, he didn't try to cuff me....he acted OK, but in this case OK wasn't good enough, and it still should have gone much better.

    Quote Originally Posted by bzdog View Post
    I'd suggest short as possible. "I have a permit and I'm carrying". Or as others have mentioned, (and probably better) have the DL and permit already out and simply hand it to him.

    Perhaps, but even if it annoys him, the info is out there then and with luck, it should increase the probability that the interaction will go reasonably.



    I think you really want quiet, not loud. De-escalate. "Please don't point the gun at my wife." or "You are pointing the gun at my wife." Don't agitate or alarm the person trying to figure out the loaded firearm...

    If I was a LEO, I think this would be my personal perspective on the best action.

    If you have proper documentation and told me where the firearm is located, any moving around to show it, or handling of it, only increases the potential of something going wrong.

    On top of that, I would think you should assume *everyone* is armed even if they tell you they are not.

    And even when someone tells you where a weapon is, keep in mind they still might be lying.

    -john
    All good points.

    In almost every case where I've been stopped, I generally do show my permit with the DL, in this case I never got the chance.

    Earlier in the thread I suggested that the officer may have been complacent, but it was MY actions overall that tipped him off that I might be armed, when all I was trying to be was polite, usually it pays off, in this case it didn't. As someone else noted, I don't think it would have made a difference in THIS case.

    I don't fuss with anything in the car once I'm being pulled over, other than turning off the radio and I usually do that while pulling over.
    I don't want the officer to see me moving around in the car and either think I'm hiding something or that I'm getting something, like a gun. It's just the way I do things, again never had an issue till this one stop.

    99 times out of 10, the shortest answer is the best answer, this was the one time where a longer answer might have been better.
    Last edited by JD; November 12th, 2008 at 10:54 AM.

  3. #48
    Senior Member Array boscobeans's Avatar
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    I have been stopped twice while carrying concealed in the gUNfriendly state of New York. License and permit in hand before the officer stopped his vehicle. "I have an unrestricted permit to carry a handgun and have one holstered on my right hip." A quick look at my permit and my license and after getting my little ticket I was sent on my merry way without any hassle whatsoever.
    bosco

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    I don't fuss with anything in the car once I'm being pulled over, other than turning off the radio and I usually do that while pulling over. I don't want the officer to see me moving around in the car and either think I'm hiding something or that I'm getting something, like a gun.
    I agree. Messing about pulling stuff out of your wallet and the glove compartment is the sort of thing that can make the officer suspicious.

  5. #50
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    As I've said before, if JD had been a BG with no CCW permit and concealing a weapon, he could have remained silent about any weapons in the car. The deputy would have run his license, written a ticket, and sent him on his way never knowing how close he came to possible danger. I agree, I don't really understand the LEO's reaction to being informed of the presence of a legally carried weapon. I guess it just boils down to poor training and poor judgement - neither of which bodes well for the LEO or the public he is sworn to protect.
    Laws that forbid the carrying of arms ... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes ... they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. Thomas Jefferson

  6. #51
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    FANTASTIC follow up with the police department. I think the more we do this the more awareness we'll have for the ability of the common man to carry a firearm. I think this had to have been a rookie officer as a 1911 is so common its hard to believe a season officer wouldn't know otherwise.

  7. #52
    JD [OP]
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImChad View Post
    FANTASTIC follow up with the police department. I think the more we do this the more awareness we'll have for the ability of the common man to carry a firearm. I think this had to have been a rookie officer as a 1911 is so common its hard to believe a season officer wouldn't know otherwise.
    Guy was a gray-haired sergeant. At least mid 40's to 50's

  8. #53
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    JD,

    I'm just glad that ya'll are ok. YOU DID GOOD!!!

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  9. #54
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    The only thing different I do when I get pulled over is when I am asked for my license and registration is announce that "I have a permit and am armed, how do you want to handle this?" I do this because I don't want the officer th see my gun while I'm reaching for my wallet.

    Other than this I do everything the same as you, and I don't think that annoucing first would have turned out differently in your case.
    A real man loves his wife, and places his family as the most important thing in life. Nothing has brought me more peace and content in life than simply being a good husband and father.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    Regarding the training of officers, this is a small county=small budget, and judging by the trends in budgets across the nation re: Public Safety, they're only going to get smaller (the budgets) and training costs money.
    Well, none of the problems this officer had were really because of a lack of training in various weapons platforms. Yeah, understanding a SAO pistol would have helped, however I don't think it is a stretch to think that every LEO should at least be trained in the following four points:

    1. Guns don't go bang if the trigger doesn't get pulled;
    2. A gun locked in your patrol car can't have the trigger pulled;
    3. Don't focus on the weapon to the exclusion of the person who might do you harm;
    4. Obey the four laws of gun safety even (especially!) with unfamiliar weapons.


    I don't think it is unreasonable to think that anybody who has had to demonstrate competence with one single type of weapon could follow these rules for just about any type of gun he may come across.

    I think you did as well as could be expected (heck, probably better than could have been expected) under the circumstances, JD, and I think you especially made the right choice not mentioning Lima's weapon. It is very obvious that the moment the officer became aware you were armed, the stop became all about your gun. That was the officer's principle mistake, but doing anything to distract his focus at that point was probably just going to make things worse.

    May I never meet that officer!
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  11. #56
    EW3
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    Is it just me, or is Virginia one giant SPEED TRAP?
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  12. #57
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    I didnt read all 6 pages of replies, so sorry if these points have been addressed already.

    I'm not suprised at the deputies actions, I've seen neighboring depts. that I work with do the same thing. If nothing else, I'm sure the deputy in question got some remedial training from his fellow deputies once word spread of his poor tactics. I hope some formal training took place.

    I'm also slightly disapointed that there was no follow up from the Sheriff. Have you tried to follow up yourself?

    Also, one common misconception is that being a LEO is all about guns and you need to be a Hoppes head to be a LEO. That just isnt true. Very little of the job has anything to do with firearms, and a good number of LEO's dont give a hoot about guns, so they know how to operate their gun and thats about it. Training budgets are so far stretched, gun related training is way down the totem pole, esp. in smaller or poorer areas. Good or bad, thats the way it is.

    BTW, where do you guys live that they pay the LEO's 20-35k!? Jeese, we make triple those numbers here.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  13. #58
    JD [OP]
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I didnt read all 5 pages of replies, so sorry if these points have been addressed already.

    I'm not suprised at the deputies actions, I've seen neighboring depts. that I work with do the same thing. If nothing else, I'm sure the deputy in question got some remedial training from his fellow deputies once word spread of his poor tactics. I hope some formal training took place.

    I'm also slightly disapointed that there was no follow up from the Sheriff. Have you tried to follow up yourself?
    Not yet, I've been kind of busy with the kid on the way, and doing some job hunting/interviews. It's in the back of my mind to give him a call, but I just haven't gotten around to it yet.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    Not yet, I've been kind of busy with the kid on the way, and doing some job hunting/interviews. It's in the back of my mind to give him a call, but I just haven't gotten around to it yet.
    Thats the way its going to be for 18+ years now.


    I think did exactly right in this tough spot. Some people would have made things a lot worse. I think some of us (CCW'rs) forget that we are setting examples and representing the ccw community as a whole to the LEO's when stopped. Acting like a fool does nothing to help us. Thanks for being rational and professional.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  15. #60
    Senior Member Array Holdcard's Avatar
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    This is exactly why LEO's scare me. I understand that not all of them are gun people, I understand that for some it's just a job and their firearm is just a tool in the box. I understand that your first stop where someone says they are armed may get your adrenaline pumping.

    What I don't understand is why training does not encompass the 4 simple rules of gun safety more completely.

    This is not about bashing officers, it's about safety. I can excuse a lot of things, a bad day, excitement, fear, lack of training, lack of experience, etc. I have a real problem when ANYONE points a firearm in the direction of my family or myself.

    There was a post a while back saying something about why officers don't respect your permit to carry, events like this (however seldom they occur) reinforce my apprehension about LEO's.
    As stated before, this is not about bashing - it's about safety for everyone involved.

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