"My" Improperly Handled Traffic Stop.

This is a discussion on "My" Improperly Handled Traffic Stop. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Holdcard What I don't understand is why training does not encompass the 4 simple rules of gun safety more completely. I'm sure ...

Page 5 of 12 FirstFirst 123456789 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 173

Thread: "My" Improperly Handled Traffic Stop.

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Posts
    2,147
    Quote Originally Posted by Holdcard View Post
    What I don't understand is why training does not encompass the 4 simple rules of gun safety more completely.
    I'm sure that all LEOs have been trained on the four rules of gun safety at one time or another. Unfortunately, just knowing the four rules in an intellectual sense isn't enough. The problem is if they only shoot a once or twice a year qualification, they're not going to internalize them.

    When someone only has an intellectual knowledge of the four rules, they'll be safe only when they're thinking about being safe. As soon as something else takes their attention (trying to unload an unfamiliar weapon, in this case) they'll start doing all sorts of stupid stuff. Someone who shoots more often, on the other hand, is much more likely to have internalized the four rules (as long as they actually obey the four rules when they're shooting, of course). The trigger finger will go into register automatically and they'll never carelessly muzzle sweep someone, even if they've got something else on their minds.

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #62
    Member Array Jason Rogers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Lorton Virginia
    Posts
    211
    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    Not yet, I've been kind of busy with the kid on the way, and doing some job hunting/interviews. It's in the back of my mind to give him a call, but I just haven't gotten around to it yet.
    Check PM.
    "The price of freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness." -Robert A. Heinlein

  4. #63
    Senior Member Array Holdcard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Phoenix, Az.
    Posts
    531
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    I'm sure that all LEOs have been trained on the four rules of gun safety at one time or another. Unfortunately, just knowing the four rules in an intellectual sense isn't enough. The problem is if they only shoot a once or twice a year qualification, they're not going to internalize them.

    When someone only has an intellectual knowledge of the four rules, they'll be safe only when they're thinking about being safe. As soon as something else takes their attention (trying to unload an unfamiliar weapon, in this case) they'll start doing all sorts of stupid stuff. Someone who shoots more often, on the other hand, is much more likely to have internalized the four rules (as long as they actually obey the four rules when they're shooting, of course). The trigger finger will go into register automatically and they'll never carelessly muzzle sweep someone, even if they've got something else on their minds.
    I understand your logic, but I still feel that there are some things that are simply inexcusable no matter who you are or what your job title is. Pointing a firearm (one I know to be loaded) at my family is definately one of them.

    Although the law probably wouldn't see it that way, the officer in this case did pose an immediate threat to not only Lima's life, but the babies as well. Isn't that the justification most of us are taught in order to get our carry permits? I think they both handled it extremely well, hat's off to both of you.

    If my vehicle or I met the description of someone requiring a felony stop, drawn weapons whatever. That I could understand as long as proper procedure was followed (ie don't shoot me I'm being compliant).

    Why is it that officers feel the need to play with a firearm they don't understand? is it policy, if so it needs to be changed. Why don't they just lock the thing in their car, or even hold it in a safe direction until they are satisfied that you're not a bad guy? After all, they are giving you your firearm and bullets back.

    Stop an think about it, I carry extra magazines, even if they unload my firearm, I can reload it very quickly, many will hand it back with the action open, which actually decreases the amount of time it takes to reload.

    Holdcard
    If You Want To POPULATE Heaven
    You Have To PLUNDER Hell!!

    4th Man Ministries

  5. #64
    VIP Member Array JimmyC4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Minnesnowta
    Posts
    2,036
    As a general comment, I've had several LE encounters that were similar in terms of follow-up.

    When I've had concerns about how something was handled (no, I was not the perp...heh) and brought it up with LE "management", I experienced what I'll call "sympathy without agreement". In short, great listening skills but absolutely no follow-up to correct the performance shortfall by staff. I'm beginning to see that it may be a taught supervisory skill in the profession....
    "It's a big gun when I carry it, it is also a big gun when I take it out” – Clint Smith

  6. #65
    Member Array JusticeDun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    92
    I really don't know what to say other than this leo was a bonehead.
    Common sense should rule the day but unfortunately SOME seem to be lacking.

  7. #66
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    State of Discombobulation
    Posts
    5,254
    I'm beginning to see that it may be a taught supervisory skill in the profession....
    It is.

    I can't seem to pass that class, as I'm always inserting my boot in to either my mouth or a rectum.

    To me, knowing how and when to listen is important, but not as important as knowing when and how to act.

    Biker

    Quote Originally Posted by Holdcard View Post
    This is exactly why LEO's scare me. I understand that not all of them are gun people, I understand that for some it's just a job and their firearm is just a tool in the box. I understand that your first stop where someone says they are armed may get your adrenaline pumping.

    What I don't understand is why training does not encompass the 4 simple rules of gun safety more completely.

    This is not about bashing officers, it's about safety. I can excuse a lot of things, a bad day, excitement, fear, lack of training, lack of experience, etc. I have a real problem when ANYONE points a firearm in the direction of my family or myself.

    There was a post a while back saying something about why officers don't respect your permit to carry, events like this (however seldom they occur) reinforce my apprehension about LEO's.
    As stated before, this is not about bashing - it's about safety for everyone involved.

    Holdcard
    So what would you have done in JD's situation?

    If you had yelled at the officer, don't you think you would just make a tense situation worse, maybe causing the officer to have an ND? If you are trying to use this as justification to either disarm the officer or get in to a self defensive shooting with him you are barking up the wrong tree.

    While his tactics may have stunk, and they did, he was still within the scope of his employment to take, and make the weapon safe. If something happened and he had an ND, then it's lawyer time. That's why they make the big bucks.

    I know it's not much recourse, but the time and place to argue about tactics, procedures and what not is NOT on the side of the road with the guy that has a gun and more importantly the Badge. He thsat has the Badge and Gun on the side of the road makes the rules. The courts are for interpreting the rules, and in some cases, forcing new rules to be implemented.

    Biker

  8. #67
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    I don't post here anymore...Sorry
    Posts
    2,333
    If you haven't heard back yet, send a certified letter with the green card attached to confirm delivery, and request information on the followup of the incident.

  9. #68
    Senior Member Array Landric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Kansas City Metro
    Posts
    807
    I'm working on my 13th year in Law Enforcement. I've worked for several departments during that time, and never, from the basic academy on, have I had any training on the different operating systems of various weapons other than those I was issued. Maybe some department out there has it, but I've never been exposed to it. I've also never been exposed to any training on handling legally armed people.

    Luckily for me (and those citizens I interact with), I'm both a gun guy and interested in the laws relating to weapons in general. If I ever find it necessary to handle someone's weapon, I'm pretty confidant that I will know how to do it safely. I'm also pretty up on laws in reference to weapons and I know that open carry is legal in my state.

    I'd be willing to bet a paycheck that no one has ever posted on the internet about a negative encounter with me while they were legally armed, but I know I'm the exception when it comes to general firearms knowledge and research on the laws in my jurisdiction. I do my best to educate my co-workers, and some are much better than others.

    My point is that in general the police are taught in training that only cops and bad guys are armed. In the grand scheme of things most states concealed weapons permit laws on a shall-issue basis are pretty recent developments (only 13 years in NC), and law enforcement tends to experience slow change in general. I expect the training will eventually catch up, but as of right now, in my experience, it hasn't.
    -Landric

    "The Engine could still smile...it seemed to scare them" -Felix

  10. #69
    Senior Member Array BeefyBeefo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    CO
    Posts
    954
    Landric, is it your general course of action to disarm the individual, or only under certain circumstances? I'm just curious and totally understand if you are unable/unwilling to answer.

    -Jeff-

  11. #70
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,158

    Maybe an LEO can explain this

    Quote Originally Posted by dhbry232 View Post
    As I've said before, if JD had been a BG with no CCW permit and concealing a weapon, he could have remained silent about any weapons in the car.
    This is so obvious, I have to wonder why LEOs even bother to ask if you are armed when they do a traffic stop. The good guys will have a license, the bad guys will lie anyway; in between I suppose there will be some stupid ones who admit to a knife when they could have kept their mouthes shut.

    From the outside, not in the LEOs shoes, it looks like a somewhat lame question. Maybe a better first question would be-- " are you legally carrying?" Followed by, are you armed with anything?

    I bet the first question would spook an illegally armed individual into giving themselves away. They'd think they were detected and get nervous as hell.

    But then, I'm not in your shoes.

  12. #71
    VIP Member
    Array Thumper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    7,093
    When I was a LEO I was actually shocked to find out just how many officers didn't like guns and subsequently only handled them at the mandatory range qualifications. On a couple Police Academies, I assisted the Range Master primarily keeping a safe range and not actual instruction from me. I saw revolvers and pistols that had not been cleaned or re-lubricated since their last qualification and still had the original rounds in them.

    I tried to approach this as non-confrontational as I could, offering one on one training, informal fun shoots etc but ended with telling them they were not only putting their own lives at risk but also that of their partners. There's only so much a department can do with such officers. Truth is, not every cop is a gun lover!
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

    "A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
    judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
    superior skills."

  13. #72
    Senior Member Array Arkie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    796
    Well I think you did good JD.
    You kept your cool even though your mind was racing with all sort of things that could have went very wrong with the whole stop process.

    Don't Lima have little cards with the address of her You Tube videos on how to strip down a 1911? If not print some out! I've watched them and they are really good.

  14. #73
    Distinguished Member Array Ghettokracker71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Under a rock.
    Posts
    1,763
    I live in VA. What is the law regaurding concealed carry,and the officer removing and disarming your weapon? That seems very unsafe.

    I'm glad everything turned out to be okay, sounds like that officer was putting his life in risk way too many times to count after reading your story. Thanks for sharing.

  15. #74
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Kommie-fornia-stan
    Posts
    6,999
    yeah, but this was a BG all the way (before he had a permit).....and the system failed to work, despite one officer throwing flags up saying this was a BG...
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

    martyr is a fancy name for crappy fighter
    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

  16. #75
    JD [OP]
    JD is offline
    Administrator
    Array JD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Central Iowa
    Posts
    18,886
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghettokracker71 View Post
    I live in VA. What is the law regaurding concealed carry,and the officer removing and disarming your weapon? That seems very unsafe.
    As far as I can tell, there is no law stating that they can't do it, it's all encompassed in "Officer Safety" which basically states that an officer can make certain reasonable requests to insure their personal safety.

    Disarming a person during a traffic stop can be done safely.

Page 5 of 12 FirstFirst 123456789 ... LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Should LEOs disarm you when they perform a "non-felony traffic stop"?
    By cagueits in forum The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion
    Replies: 57
    Last Post: February 3rd, 2010, 09:19 PM
  2. Another "what if" traffic stop thread
    By HowardCohodas in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: March 4th, 2009, 09:18 PM
  3. "Rookies" Armed traffic stop
    By svinfinity45 in forum Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: October 24th, 2008, 10:08 PM
  4. LEO traffic stop and getting "outed"
    By NRATodd in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: January 29th, 2008, 09:30 PM

Search tags for this page

check the status of ccw permit in arlington va
,

colorado ccw traffic stops

,
concealed weapons traffic stop in idaho
,

gun carry and traffic stops forums

,

handgun permit traffic stop tennessee

,

show ccw traffic stop washinton state

,
tennessee carry permit traffic stop
,
traffic stop handgun permit tn
,
traffic stop protocol when ccw in upstate new york
,
washington concealed carry traffic stop
,
washington state ccw traffic stop disarm
,

washington state concealed carry traffic stop

Click on a term to search for related topics.