I Had to Shoot

This is a discussion on I Had to Shoot within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Once 9-1-1 and the police are notified and made sure there are no other BGs, I would if possible attempt to secure the BG weapon ...

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Thread: I Had to Shoot

  1. #16
    Member Array Kid1911's Avatar
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    Once 9-1-1 and the police are notified and made sure there are no other BGs, I would if possible attempt to secure the BG weapon without touching it with my hands. The last thing I would want is a downed BG or someone else getting access to this weapon. Do what I can to keep as many witnesses around as possible without saying anything to them about what happened and keeping my mouth shut. Don't need any witnesses making staements on anything said afterwards or on something they thought they heard me say. Once the police arrive make sure to comply with their instructions and let them know I was in fear for my life and had to defend myself and wish to speak to an attorney before answering any questions.

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  3. #17
    Member Array soflasmg's Avatar
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    I agree with Joe.

    I will add preserve the evidence. The goblins weapon etc... . Don't let anyone walk off with it.
    The Marshmallowist

  4. #18
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    contingencies

    Both in this thread and elsewhere "in fear of my life", "afraid for my life", and other similar justifying phrases are common.

    Maybe the intent is to cite a reason specifically mentioned in the local self-defense laws.

    Seems like trying to quote a correctly legal justification would be difficult, given that one might have the shakes and be unable to remember his own name at that point. The self-defense laws in my state don't mention "fear" or "afraid" anyway. Plus, I can see the possibility that if my statement is legally perfect and rehearsed, a DA or grand jury might decide the act was premeditated and not really self-defense. As long as the shooter doesn't say something totally stupid ("He gave me the finger so I blew him away"), I think facts would be more important than speeches.

    So, to answer the original question posed in this thread, my general plan would involve
    -making sure the threat ended
    -reloading pistol in case additional threats arrive before police (that is the point of ccw, after all)
    -holstering the pistol
    -phoning 911
    -waiting on the spot for the police
    -disturbing the scene as little as possible to facilitate the forensic investigation
    -striving to be calm and rational
    -displaying empty hands when the police arrive.

    Regarding witnesses, I would expect bystanders to quickly disappear when the shooting occurs.

    I would try to speak coherently, but I can't predict any fine details in advance. There are innumerable possible contingencies:

    If the injured attacker were still alive and had a weapon, I would move it out of his reach. If he were unconscious and gushing blood and I myself were not injured, I might try to stop the flow.

    If I chose to speak, I would stick to statements of facts about the shooting. If the police Mirandized and arrested me I would say nothing.

    The more I think about a self-defense shooting, the more I hate the idea. Any way you cut it, it would be a very bad event. I guess the only reason I do carry concealed is that being unarmed and victimized would be worse than any possible outcome of the self-defense shooting.

  5. #19
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    Some have mentioned providing first aid to the downed attacker. While I agree with this from a moral perspective, I don't think placing yourself that close to someone who just convinced you that they were a deadly threat is a good idea. Remember, we're not talking about an injured Girl Scout here - your attacker just convinced you that you had no other choice but to defend yourself against a real and immediate threat with deadly force. If this person wanted to hurt me, I don't think shooting him would make him suddenly decide that I'm a nice guy. I would certainly ask the 911 dispatcher for an ambulance though.

    SSKC

  6. #20
    Member Array Scott F's Avatar
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    Several times in the above I have seen “reholster”.

    OK I understand the need to not be waving a gun around. That would not be the image you would want to portray.

    But what do you do when the first LEO arrives. Do you inform him you are carrying or just let him guess? Would it be better to be removed from your weapon when he arrives so as to not be considered a threat to the officer?
    In HIS Service
    Scott F

  7. #21
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    But what do you do when the first LEO arrives. Do you inform him you are carrying or just let him guess?
    I would reholster but then on arrival of LE do my best to make sure they know I am a good guy - plus first thing would be a statement - ''I am carrying - how would you like me to proceed?"

    No guesswork - it is dangerous, but your weapon should IMO until this stage be totally still under (only) your control..
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  8. #22
    Member Array ibex's Avatar
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    The officer will know that a shooting has occurred when he arrives, so he knows you have a weapon. As soon as he wants to see some ID, I'd show my CCW license. Depending on the officers behavior, I might even tell him sooner, verbally.

    At that point, they will separate you from your sidearm anyway. Evidence.

    As long as the LEOs can see both of your hands when they arrive, they should not perceive you as an immediate threat.

    I would not put my gun out of reach until LEO protection arrives. You are still alone in hostile territory. When LEOs arrive, they should decide when they want to see your weapon. Do not reach for it unless asked to.
    "So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause."
    - Senator Padmé Amidala, "Revenge of the Sith"

  9. #23
    Senior Member Array gregarat's Avatar
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    I agree with everyone, but I get stuck with
    I would re-holster but then on arrival of LE do my best to make sure they know I am a good guy - plus first thing would be a statement - ''I am carrying - how would you like me to proceed?"
    .
    I get stuck here, because I’m worried about "jumpy" Leo’s. I mean what if the LEO doesn’t believe that "Im the good guy".
    I’m scared about an ironic death. I can see it now... I save my hide, just to have the LEO end it. Because he assumes I’m the bad guy. That is how my luck is . Call me silly, but what’s that word Chris?… Oh ya cynicism! Or is it parinoia?

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array rfurtkamp's Avatar
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    Based on what I've dealt with in the aftermath, I've learned:

    - I answer questions in writing only, if questions are asked - even with a lawyer present. They are substantially harder to take out of context.
    - If possible, weapon is holstered. That may not always be possible.
    - If no shots were fired, I do not call 911. I do not trust my local LEOs any more after my last incident.

    Past that, it's going to vary substantially by the circumstances. I'm not worried about crime scene - I'm worried about *my* safety and those around me. I do not intend to cause damage to the scene, but I'm not a forensic dude either - and have no knowledge nor desire to know forensic procedure. ;)
    Driver carries less than $45 worth of remorse.

  11. #25
    Member Array Scott F's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    I would reholster but then on arrival of LE do my best to make sure they know I am a good guy - plus first thing would be a statement - ''I am carrying - how would you like me to proceed?"

    No guesswork - it is dangerous, but your weapon should IMO until this stage be totally still under (only) your control..
    That is pretty much what I thought I would do/should do.

    If I were in my home and had shot an intruder and he was no longer in any condition to be of harm to me or my family I might lay my gun in a safe and visible place then stepping several steps away so that the officer does not have the stress of disarming me. I think this would better for all parties involved with the possible exception of the guy on the floor soaking my carpet with his bodily fluids.

    I think in the case of the above it would be best to move around my home as little as possible one the safety of my family was determined. This would disturb the scene as little as possible.

    It the incident happened outside my home, say on a street then I can see that I would not want to have my gun out or give up possession of it in an unsecured place.

    The interesting scenario comes when you have not disabled the BG. Say you were at home and the BG was shot but no longer wants to pursue the fight right now. You are now holding a wounded man on the floor and he has the potential to get up and continue doing you harm. You call or have the wife call 911 while you are holding the BG at gunpoint until help arrives. I can see where the LEO could have a much more difficult time with this one. In my experience the BG does not wear a t-shirt with twelve inch letters in florescent orange that reads “BG”. At least they don’t around here.

    He has to make sure the roles have not been reversed in the time between the call and his arrival. In this case I will tell the LEO that I am armed (just in case he can’t see that) and then ask for step by step instructions. I know that there are bad LEOs out there but in this case I do not see any other course of action for my prolonged health and safety. I will just have to hope and pray I get someone who has his head on straight. I am fortunate in that the parts of the country I spend nearly all my time I have a 98% or better chance of getting a good one. If not, what the heck, the BG was going to kill me anyway.


    In HIS Service
    Scott F

  12. #26
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    Many good points and a lot of common ground.

    Greg's concern
    I get stuck here, because I?m worried about "jumpy" Leo?s. I mean what if the LEO doesn?t believe that "Im the good guy".
    is I think not a problem if we present ourselves correctly and safely. I would make double sure while verbalizing my status that my hands were VERY much in clear view.

    Initially I might be seen as a bad guy but I am not going to invite any lethal force on myself by being other than totally compliant and non-threatening. If then a cop shot me he'd be in for nothing more than a homicide himself.

    Scott F's mention of disabled BG - well I'd hope here that we could contain things by holding at gunpoint - but hoping too that enough info has been conveyed over phone etc to give LE a chance to know who is who.

    At the approach of arriving LE then it will be down to safely disarming oneself - proving intent of zero threat and take it from there. What the BG says and how much ''he said-she said'' follows is another problem, once cops have situation controlled.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  13. #27
    Member Array Scott F's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    Scott F's mention of disabled BG - well I'd hope here that we could contain things by holding at gunpoint - but hoping too that enough info has been conveyed over phone etc to give LE a chance to know who is who.
    I think you have hit upon a key point. I know 911 operators receive a lot of mumbled or screamed incoherent information. My mother spent years answering 911 calls and could keep you in tears laughing at the calls she took. It is vital that we clearly convey accurate information to the 911 operator. If done correctly the arriving LEO should know what we look like, that we are armed and the status of the BG. Done correctly this could save everyone a lot of trouble.

    I have enjoyed this thread and the quality posts here.
    In HIS Service
    Scott F

  14. #28
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    The only thing I'd add to the above, is that If you are taken into custody:

    Do not waste your phone call(s) on trying to track down an attorney after hours. Call someone you trust totally (spouse, parent, etc.) to track down the attorney for you.

    Hope this helps; Just based on what my CHL Instructor told me in class (he's a LEO).

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Wow , Great posts all and sounds like everyone is pretty much on the right track on this . Now as I implied here is what I would do :


    Once the BG is down I would reload and seek cover ( assuming I had no cover ) while yelling lowdly " Call 911" . once under cover and having established that the BG was acting alone, many run in packs , I would cellphone 911 myself , preferably on speakerphone ( so I can pocket the phone , or reclip it freeing up my hand(s) ), requesting police and ambulance. I would maintain view of the badguy, and any witnesses/possible other bg's. I would not reholster at this time, nor would I point the pistol in a manner that could be construed menacing . I would request everybody to stay untill police arrive. At no time would I approch the bg for any reason, tho I would not interfere with anyone attempting to render aid , only cautioning them about the weapon ( please dont toutch or move that gun/knife ect... ) Remember my cell is still running and in contact with dispatch . I would be advising dispatch of how I am dressed , and armed . Uppon Police arrival I would either 1. look for a flat surface nearby ( assuming I have a safety zone from other people ) and lay My gun on it as the officers arrive , or 2. reholster as they arrive . In either case I would keep both hands in view of the officers and follow instructions to the letter. I would advise the officers of where the weapons ( mine and the bg's ) are located . I would advise the officers that i was the one that called 911, and that I had been attacked forceing me to defend myself . I woud then request to call my attorney via my cellphone and ask him to meet with us ( at scene if possible ) . I would politely but firmly decline to answer questions or make any statements about the occurance at this time . I would not discuss the incident with anyone. No one but your attorney is a friend now, not the nice detective, not the ambulance attendent, not your drinking buddy . Anything you say to anyone WILL BE taken out of context and twisted , then repeated . Another note is FULLY disclose all about the incident to your attorney , hold nothing back from him , He must be aware of all facts to be an effective advocate for you . God forbid any of you go thro this ordeal but if you do having thought about it may well make the differance in a No True Bill , and an inditement

    sorry for the long post but its not a topic that lends itself to a brief missive imho LOL

  16. #30
    Member Array CleaningAccident's Avatar
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    1. Disarm the BGs lifeless body. Preferably by kicking the weapon away from him so as not to leave your prints on his weapon.
    2. Inform any witnesses not to touch anything and to remain at the scene until Police arrive. (This is best accomplished while still holding your weapon of "self defense"). Remove magazine, open breach and place weapon on the ground within your reach. Do NOT discuss the incident with any witnesses.
    3. Dial 911 immediately and report a shooting and give the location. Repeat the report and location, then hang up. Do NOT converse with the 911 dispatcher. The dispatcher will call back. Answer no questions other than the location and your name. Hang up.
    Your call is being recorded.
    Your call is being recorded.
    Your call is being recorded.
    4. Make note of the location of your casings and the body and ask witnesses to do the same.
    5. Call your attorney.
    6. When the officers arrive, state "everything happened so fast, I was in fear for my life". Repeat this until the officers are tired of asking you. Do not even admit to being the shooter. DO NOT testIFY TO THE OFFICERS.
    7. Do NOT discuss the incident with anyone, at anytime, before you speak to your attorney. ANYTHING that you say to ANYONE, other than your attorney, will absolutely be used as evidence AGAINST you.

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