Need help on guns in home stats

This is a discussion on Need help on guns in home stats within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; please read this article first.. Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home. [J Trauma. 1998] - PubMed Result I am trying to find ...

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Thread: Need help on guns in home stats

  1. #1
    Member Array denverbear's Avatar
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    Need help on guns in home stats

    please read this article first..
    Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home. [J Trauma. 1998] - PubMed Result

    I am trying to find stats that contridict this article and would love any help I could get to prove this is not true....thanks
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  3. #2
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    Array RETSUPT99's Avatar
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    Liars figure, figures lie...

    How many drug houses? Gang-bangers?
    Biased news accounts?

    Good luck, but I think you're on a useless search. OMO
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    Ex Member Array JOHNSMITH's Avatar
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    Also, I never really understood that logic. So you're saying that a gun in my home will probably, one night, sneak out, point itself towards me, and pull its own trigger? Because I mean, its more likely to hurt me right? So obviously the gun must have a mind of its own.


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    Member Array bonehead's Avatar
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    Studies can be manipulated several ways to get the desired result. A few things regarding that abstract:
    1) The first weakness in that 'study' is it was a retrospective chart review: one of the weakest forms of evidence-based research

    2) Without benefit of the full article, it's impossible to discern whether or not all 626 cases involved guns legally possessed by a member of the household. Just because a shooting was 'in or around a residence' does not tell me whether the firearm belonged to a member of the house in question (i.e. some thug broke into a house with an illegally acquired handgun, shoots and kills the inhabitants. Inclusion of this type of scenario would obviously skew the results)

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    Member Array Darkwater's Avatar
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    Must be the night for stats!

    See: How to Lie With Statistics by Darrell Huff

    That said, the shooting of a firearm that results in a death or injury isn't necessary to stop crime. There is no requirement in Texas to record when a firearm deters a crime (or so I was told, please correct me if I'm wrong).

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    I'm no expert in this. But...the study was done in 1998. At least here in Jacksonville there is no comparison between today's thugs and those of ten years ago. Today's thugs will kill you for the smallest reason.

    Also, these studies tend to lump suicides in with other shootings. I don't think anyone intent on killing themself would have trouble finding a "tool" other than a gun.

    As far as I can tell, most of these "studies" are funded and conducted for the express purpose of "proving" that guns (even in the hands of law abiding citizens) are bad.

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    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    Go to this thread, post 5, I believe, has a number of references.

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...tml#post634994

    Look up "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International Evidence." (by Gary Mauser and Don Kates)

    The abstract (summary) of the article says weapons have NO impact.

    Google and find "Gun Facts 5.0." This will give you LOTS of info.
    (GunFacts.info.com)
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    Senior Member Array KenInColo's Avatar
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    Take any argument you want and you can find & manipulate statistics to favor both sides of it.

    The NRA says that, every year, 2.5 million violent crimes are prevented by citizens armed w/handguns.

    National police studies show overwhelmingly that being armed w/a handgun is the very best way to survive a violent encounter. That is contrary to the experts saying to just do what ever the assailant demands.
    Last edited by KenInColo; December 2nd, 2008 at 11:32 PM. Reason: Spelling
    An armed populace are called citizens.
    An unarmed populace are called subjects.

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    Member Array TapRackBang's Avatar
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    Stats are a good thing.

    Did you know that people that have automobile are 75% more likley to get into a auto accident.


    here are some real ones

    Just facts.com

    Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. At the time the law was passed, critics predicted increases in violence. The founder of the National Organization of Women, Betty Friedan stated:

    "lethal violence, even in self defense, only engenders more violence." (13)

    * When the law went into effect, the Dade County Police began a program to record all arrest and non arrest incidents involving concealed carry licensees. Between September of 1987 and August of 1992, Dade County recorded 4 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. None of these crimes resulted in an injury. The record keeping program was abandoned in 1992 because there were not enough incidents to justify tracking them. (13)(15)

    * Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. Between 1987 and 1996, these changes occurred:

    homicide rate
    Florida
    -36%
    United States
    -0.4%

    firearm homicide rate
    Florida
    -37%
    United States
    +15%

    handgun homicide rate
    Florida
    -41%
    United States
    +24%

    * 221,443 concealed carry licenses were issued in Florida between October of 1987 and April of 1994. During that time, Florida recorded 18 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. (15)

    * As of 1998, nationwide, there has been 1 recorded incident in which a permit holder shot someone following a traffic accident. The permit holder was not charged, as the grand jury ruled the shooting was in self defense. (7)

    * As of 1998, no permit holder has ever shot a police officer. There have been several cases in which a permit holder has protected an officer's life. (7)

    The CDC keeps track of violent deaths and list "children" from birth the age 15 most of the deaths are in the 15yr old range but are still listed as children
    http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/wisqars/


    Also try GunCite: gun control and Second Amendment issues

    Here's a couple more

    http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-fa...s4-1-Print.pdf


    NCPA - Policy Report 176 - Myths About Gun Control
    Gun Control Myths: The Case of England by Thomas Sowell -- Capitalism Magazine

    http://www.mcsm.org/gunfacts.pdf
    "Arms in the hands of individual citizens may be used at individual discretion..in private self defense." John Adams

  11. #10
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    A little late to the thread, but incase you do not have access to the full article, a brief summary and table of the authors’ main points

    Important points

    Home was defined as the immediate area around a house/driveway excluding detached structures, outbuildings, and common areas of multi-unit housing.

    The data is identified as coming from gunshot injuries during November 1992 to May 1994. 1,915 gunshot injury cases were recorded in the three cities. 626 cases fit their inclusion data for home gunshot injuries.

    No follow up was done to determine the legal outcome; only the initial police report/recommendation to the prosecuting office was used to determine if the situation was legally justifiable use of the gun in self defense.

    Table 1 is the authors summary of their findings. The initial problem I have with this is that the authors would like you to assume that the gun involved was kept in the home. However, a close look at their summary table indicated that the majority of the guns involved were carried to the situation (approx. 76%), not kept in the home. I have yet to understand how you or a law are going to preemptively prevent someone from committing a crime against you or your family. The authors also fail to address if multiple firearms were involved in each situation.

    Either side of an argument can usually find plenty of support for their view point, and this data should be getting on the old side to be used as support for anti-gun efforts.
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    Member Array denverbear's Avatar
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    thanks every one for the input...putting together a file of these posts and need all the input I can get...thanks again
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  13. #12
    Senior Member Array KenInColo's Avatar
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    Sorry I didn't find this one earlier. It's from our own Rocky Mountain Gun Owners web site:

    GOA Fact Sheet-- 2004 Gun Control Facts

    It even addresses the item from your OP.
    An armed populace are called citizens.
    An unarmed populace are called subjects.

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    Member Array Spike32's Avatar
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    A pretty clear case of data manipulated to fit someone's cause. I would be willing to bet of all the cases they state, the majority of the firearms were illegally obtained or carried to the site.
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    Amateur statistician

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkwater View Post
    Must be the night for stats!

    See: How to Lie With Statistics by Darrell Huff

    That said, the shooting of a firearm that results in a death or injury isn't necessary to stop crime. There is no requirement in Texas to record when a firearm deters a crime (or so I was told, please correct me if I'm wrong).
    I once bought an introductory statistics test for my own use. It was an interestingly designed book. Each chapter had a "Crap Detector" section at the end of each chapter.

    Mathematical statistics is complicated stuff. Each procedure (and there are very many) works only if underlying assumptions about a variety of things are correct. Often they are not, and often even astute authors of science, and reviewers of such, miss this fact when assessing experimental results.

    And that is just the math part. Verbal tricks and assumptions, and wording issues, confound the analysis of survey results.

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    Member Array Firkin's Avatar
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    Something we have to remember is that there are certain statistics that never appear in studies such as this:

    1. When a home-owner is able to scare off an attacker with merely the presence of a weapon (think of a would-be home invader hearing a pump shotgun chambering a round).

    2. When the home owner fires his or her weapon but fails to hit the target.

    Neither of these circumstance would appear in the data in this particular study. Such data never show up in studies such as these. The mere decision only to include shootings when someone is either wounded or killed skews the resluts before the study even begins.
    Last edited by Firkin; December 3rd, 2008 at 02:49 PM.

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