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Don't use reloaded ammo for defense?

26K views 45 replies 34 participants last post by  BikerRN 
#1 ·
I got into a discussion at the gun counter at Gander Mountain with a gentleman regarding .380 ammo. It seems that our Gander Mountain doesn't carry Federal Hydro-shoks, Cor-Bon or any of the other hot defensive rounds.

I was talking about the possibility of reloading a decent defensive ammo, and the guy said: "Don't ever do that, if a lawyer finds out you reload, he could crucify you in front of a jury if you were ever involved in a shoot".

I hadn't heard that, and it really doesn't make sense to me. If I use a deadly weapon to stop a perp, does it matter that the ammo I'm using is as hot as ammo I could buy over the counter?

I just bought 200 90gr Speer Gold Dots and I just reloaded 50 rounds of ammo using the lightest charge listed in the Speer reloading manual. I'm going to try them out at the range tomorrow since I zeroed the laser on my LCP last week, and I'm hitting the red dot on the target at 10 yards.

What are your thoughts?

(Mods, I didn't know if this was a CC issue discussion, an ammo discussion or a reloading discussion. Move it where it needs to go if it's wrong.)
 
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#2 ·
Some names in defensive training have voiced concern over the use of reloads being construed as pre meditated planning to kill. If this has ever been actually used in a court proceeding I don't know.
 
#3 ·
Yes, I've heard of that too. Not wanting to take any chances, I just use the commercial stuff. At the range, it wouldn't matter. I don't want to give the lawyers any other angle to get a conviction if it came down to reloads v. new ammo.
 
#4 ·
I agree, anything that can be used against you will be. No sense in creating opportunity for the other side.

I always suggest finding out what ammo local law enforcement carries and then load your carry guns with the same brand/line. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for you too.
 
#5 ·
Because you don't want to open up the argument that YOU created more deadly bullets to use against other human beings (OH MY!)

But also because investigators will not be able to do simple ballistics tests to confirm your side of the story. They'll have to take your word on how you loaded the cartridges in your gun.

Search Ayoob and reloads for self defense, much more details in there.

Bottom line, better to buy and use the same things your local LEO's use if possible to forstall any arguments they may try to use against you in the ammunition department.
 
#6 ·
I only carry store bought ammo! Some of my reloads I would love to carry. Got em down to tack drivin in my 45
 
#7 ·
Given my experience with the criminal justice system, I'd say there isn't much chance that the fact you were using handloaded ammunition would even come up, unless the ammunition in question was obviously handloaded. I also don't recall ever seeing anyone with a documented case of use of handloaded ammunition being used against someone in court.

That said, it could happen. The primary reason I carry factory ammo is that it tends to be more reliable than reloaded ammunition. I am sure I could make perfectly good handloads that were just as reliable as factory if I used new brass, but between buying new brass, good defensive bullets, etc., I wouldn't be saving any money over the factory ammo anyway.

If I found myself involved in a shooting where I used handloads I simply wouldn't mention it unless asked. The chances of being asked are pretty low.
 
#9 ·
Given my experience with the criminal justice system, I'd say there isn't much chance that the fact you were using handloaded ammunition would even come up, unless the ammunition in question was obviously handloaded. I also don't recall ever seeing anyone with a documented case of use of handloaded ammunition being used against someone in court.
NJ v. Daniel Bias

You never want to be in a position of manufacturing the evidence that will be used against you. Even if you kept detailed notes regarding the load, the prosecution/plaintiff would object to their admission and the judge would sustain.

That said, it could happen. The primary reason I carry factory ammo is that it tends to be more reliable than reloaded ammunition. I am sure I could make perfectly good handloads that were just as reliable as factory if I used new brass, but between buying new brass, good defensive bullets, etc., I wouldn't be saving any money over the factory ammo anyway.

If I found myself involved in a shooting where I used handloads I simply wouldn't mention it unless asked. The chances of being asked are pretty low.
You wouldn't have to mention it. They will be able to tell from the get go. And your chances of being asked are, oh, I'd say, about 100%!

Use the same ammo the LEOs use and that way, your attorney can get one of them to testify as an expert witness on your behalf.

If you use handloaded ammo, I guarantee you that at trial, the prosecutor/plaintiff attorney is going to tell the jury that you didn't want ammo to "stop the threat", you wanted ammo that would kill; that's why you loaded your own. Also, you want to use factory ammo so that the police can get samples (by Lot #) to duplicate the load exactly.
 
#8 ·
I love reloading and I can't think of any good reason not to use manufactured ammo. The local PDs all use Gold Dots, so thats what I use.

I have developed a couple JHP loads for my .357 and 9mm, and I can't get them much, if any better than factory speer ammo.
 
#10 ·
Keep within the lines of commercially available and standard firearms and ammo. Logic would assume that deadly force was meant to be "deadly", but logic is not part of the question here. We all remember the whole black talon fiasco. Media, sheep, and juries tend to get scared of scary sounding things.
 
#11 ·
Out here in California its best to use factory ammo, retain the original packaging and at least one of the rounds in the box. We have been advised that retaining this gives us a proper rebuttal for my defense attorney should one be necessary.
Just my .02
 
#12 ·
Factory for feel safe reliability.

Keep the original packaging and 1 round from it in the box. Oh goody, another wrap on the noose.

"I used Federal HST because they have proven in multiple scientific tests by LEO agencies to not have excessive penetration, to reduce the risk of causing injury or death to an innocent if in the process of stopping the threat, the projectile passes through the suspected assailant."...Yeah, like I will get to say that in court.
 
#14 ·
My CHL class in TX said to always use factory for protective carry, for two reasons;
1. Reliability, you want it to work, every time, hopefully you will never need to, but if you do, you don't want to find out you forgot a key component in your reload, and it misfires, etc.
2. As the afore mentioned legal problems. Why ask for more problems. Sort of like wearing a t-shirt that says, "Nuke 'em all, shoot 'em in the dark" or "Shoot 'em all, let God sort them out" - it is the INTENT that will get us nailed.

Just adding my two cents, and maybe a third cent for good measure:hand5:
 
#18 ·
If I remember correctly Massad Ayoob wrote an article on this back in the 80's. The idea was that the attorney would ask the questions, why with all the good defensive factory ammunition available today would you make your own? Are you not satisfied with factory ammo? How bad do you want to cripple or kill someone? How much harm do you want to inflict? What kind of sadist are you? The idea was to find out what the local police carried and carry similar. With the political climate coming around the corner these type of tricks may be revived and revised, I hope not but who knows. The anti crowd is apt to do anything today. Personally I didn't trust my own reloads enough for anything but practice or competition. My life isn't at stake there. I can afford ammo malfunctions on a range in practice or competition but not on the street. BTW I haven't reloaded ammo for 17 years and have considered getting back into it.
 
#19 ·
If I remember correctly Massad Ayoob wrote an article on this back in the 80's. The idea was that the attorney would ask the questions, why with all the good defensive factory ammunition available today would you make your own?
Because it's much cheaper than factory ammo and I have full control over the quality

Are you not satisfied with factory ammo?
I would be if it were as cheap as what I can assemble at home with the same components that the factory uses.

How bad do you want to cripple or kill someone?
My intention was not to cripple or kill anyone. My intention was to stop the threat against my life.

How much harm do you want to inflict?
Exactly the amount required to stop the assailant from attacking me. No more, no less.

What kind of sadist are you?
(Glancing over at my lawyer waiting for the objection)

The idea was to find out what the local police carried and carry similar. With the political climate coming around the corner these type of tricks may be revived and revised, I hope not but who knows. The anti crowd is apt to do anything today. Personally I didn't trust my own reloads enough for anything but practice or competition. My life isn't at stake there. I can afford ammo malfunctions on a range in practice or competition but not on the street. BTW I haven't reloaded ammo for 17 years and have considered getting back into it.
I thank you all for you comments. I understand the concern, and since we are of the mindset to prepare ourselves for any eventuality, that preparation should extend to what some sleazy lawyer might try and do to you. It's bad enough you're attacked once, but when you're attacked again by a lawyer, you should use the best legal ammo available to you.

Since a good defensive round cost under $1 each, it makes sense to use it, just like my PPIH instructor told me that when buying magazines only buy factory made, because "why take a chance on your life for a couple bucks".

It's a good philosophy to follow.
 
#20 ·
I use factory HST and I reload enough that I would trust my stuff to go bang ,but like others have said don't give them anything to try to twist the SD argument around.
 
#21 ·
Harold Fish used factory hollowpoint ammo and the prosecution made a deal out of it during the case. This is what people seem to fear about using reloads, that it will be a point of the trial and sway the jury. With Fish, it was the fact that he used hollowpoints and that they were 10mm (big, bad, mean cartridge/bullet combo).

Note, that Fish's case wasn't the only one. Ayoob has documented a couple of cases where the ammo choice of cops has been brought up in trial as well (all factory ammo, of course). In the Spet 2004 Combat Handguns also made a very appropriate statement about case one in the article that dealt with the DA going after an officer's gun and ammo.

Things like attacking the officer's gun or ammunition are the sort of things that are predictably used by lawyers who have nothing substantive.
In regard to the Harold Fish case above (retired school teacher in AZ), he was convicted not because of his gun or ammo, but because his description of the events did not match the witness testimony and forensic data. However, the ammo was a point made by the prosecution and noted by one or two jurors after the fact in that the ammo choice was bothersome. So that led many gun folks to conclude various gun forums that it was the ammo that resulted in prosecution.

Ayoob's warnings about reloads, aside from the reliability issue, have been that people using reloads have not been able to use GSR (gun shot residue) to prove their innocence in issues of distance since there may be no consistency or standard for reloading. Was the attacker 10 feet or 20 feet away? If you know your load (such as a specific model of factory ammo), know the gun, then you know how the GSR should behave and roughly pattern. With handloads, that isn't the case, especially if you have mixed handloads.

The thing here is that the prosecutor will go after all aspects possible if desired, all the way down to the gun, caliber, ammo, and clothes you are wearing and whether or not you had a fight with your spouse earlier in the day. It is just part of the game for them to use everything possible. The defense will claim all sorts of things as well, some of which as we know are just outright stupid claims to claim innocence or justification for shooting.

The point I was making is that if one is going to claim that one should not use reloads for SD because the prosecution may go after you for using reloads, then it must be pointed out that the prosecution may go after you for using factory ammo as well. There are clearly examples of both on the books. In NONE of the cases was the use of factory or reload ammo the only factor in the case. It wasn't because Fish used factory ammo that got him convicted or the fact that a guy accused of killing his wife used reloads that got him convicted. Fish's story would not have been any more credible with factory ball ammo than with factory hollowpoint ammo. There were definitely other circumstances in those cases.

Choose your lawyer wisely.
 
#22 ·
Not wanting to derail the thread, but I watched a special on Dateline, or 48 hours (one of those shows). I was disturbed at the focus that the prosecution was making at the ammunition, and why the defense did not point out that lower quality ammo, or FMJ rounds would have put more people at risk than that of the attacker due to over penetration.

IMO, I'm not a lawyer, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
 
#26 ·
that lawyer probably doesn't know much about ammo.i would make sure mine did if it ever came to it,actually it would be best to have a defense that has won this type of case before......but expensive? yes
 
#37 ·
OK, two questions here;
1. I know that military cannot use "Expanding" bullets, hence hollowpoints are out for them. Are all or most police departments using hollow points? Aren't they afraid of the uninformed publics fear of such "Nasty" dangerous ammo?

2. What do those of us using non-police issued calibers use. I have a 38 special, but I doubt many police departments still carry these, except possibly as BUG's.

For what it's worth, based on performance test I have seen I have opted for Buffalo Bore Heavy 38 special non +p. This uses the Speer gold dot 125 grain. Not cheap but hopefully I won't NEED to fire any of it and only test fire a few, then rotate when I feel the need to replace the carry ammo.

Can't wait to take my CCW class, starts one week from today.

Ted
 
#24 ·
Daniel Bais had nothing to do with self defense, so why even bring up his name.

This has been talked about lots. I think it is going to have much more to do with where you live, as in state and community, and the events that lead up to the shooting than it ever will have to do with the ammunition you use.

How many threads have been posted in the personal defense, good, bad, ugly section where the police or prosecutor have said, it was a self defense shooting no charges will be filed, or it was a simple case of self defense shooting. Plain, clear cut case, or lack of case, end of story. The ammunition was probably never even looked at.

Personally I think that most of the people teaching self defense courses etc, do it out of simple liabilty concerns for their own part. Anyone think that if an instructor said, sure use hand loads and his student was in a self defense shooting and asked, about ammo, the student wouldn't say, well my instructor said it was fine. Next the instructor is called in for questioning. They are covering there own arses.
 
#27 · (Edited)
Daniel Bais had nothing to do with self defense, so why even bring up his name...
B/c the poster wanted to know a case where handloads got a guy into trouble.

Bias loaded the rounds (light) for his wife's SD gun; she later committed suicide w/that gun and those [handloaded in +P cases] rounds. The authorities were perplexed by the small amount of GSR present on Mrs. Bias and [naturally] thought Mr. Bias shot her from a distance (the State used +P ammo for testing). The court would not allow Mr. Bias' reloading notes, as to the lightness of the load, to be entered as evidence.

The first trial (Murder One) ended in a hung jury and bankrupted Mr. Bias. A second trail also ended in a hung jury. Finally, after four trials Mr. Bias was convicted of Manslaughter.

Another trial where handloaded ammo got someone in trouble was N.H. v. James Kennedy, where the prosecution contended that "regular ammunition wasn't deadly enough for this defendant!".

For a savings of $.50 a round you're gonna risk bankrupting yourself?
 
#25 ·
I had asked Mas Ayoob to weigh in on a thread very similar to this one a few months back regarding using reloads for any kind of self defense. I've known Mas for quite a number of years, and I can promise you any advice he gives on the subject should be listened to. personally i carry nothing but factory ammo for that very reason other posters have put forward regarding how a prosecutor may view or try to portray you for using reloads in a self defense shooting.

Also, if the original poster is having a hard time finding self defense ammo for a .380, there is a reason why: its not a very popular defense weapon.

With all the compact 9mm pistols around, I would use at the very least one of those. They make plenty of good quality rounds in that caliber.
 
#30 ·
You are better served by Buffalo Bore or Black Hills .380ACP ammo

Product Line Listing
Thanks for the link. Odds are I'll be buying a couple of boxes of those "buffalos" loaded with the gold dots. This seems to be the same recipe as the maximum recommended handloads in the manual without the legal baggage.

The link was worth it for the graphic commentary.
 
#31 ·
This discussion is theoretical and hypothetical. The chance of a self defender being crucified in a legitimate SD shooting because of his/her choice in ammo is low. Unless you have a DA that is trying to make a name for himself (e.g. Nifong), or a rich defendant hiring a civil attorney in a state where you are not protected against civil suit in a SD shooting it is unlikely that it will be pursued.

If a bystander or innocent is killed during the SD event then all factors will be considered and you will not be protected against a civil suit. Prepare for a legal battle.

You could with a competent lawyer defend against these charges, but it will require lots of money and the hiring of experts. Experts are expensive, I should know. Even if you load your cartridges with less than the recommended powder it could become an issue.

Reloading your practice ammo is fine, but don't load any self defense rounds. If you get caught with only hand loaded ammo in your gun that you must use, tell them (only if they ask) "all I had was practice ammo in my gun at the time". Do not volunteer information beyond the minimum essential facts.
 
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