Our own responsibility - Page 2

Our own responsibility

This is a discussion on Our own responsibility within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I would not want to take someone's life simply because they were stealing from me. Nothing I own is worth a life, not even the ...

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 36
  1. #16
    Senior Member Array madmike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Spring Hill, FL
    Posts
    750
    I would not want to take someone's life simply because they were stealing from me. Nothing I own is worth a life, not even the life of a bottom-of-the-food-chain, pond-scum sucking, sub-human theif.

    However, there is no law on any book that requires me to simply stand by and watch someone walk off with what's mine.

    As far as I can tell, it is within my rights to stand between a theif and my property, or remove it from his grasp. Morally and ethically, and legally, I can do just that.

    If you cannot protect what's yours, then you own nothing.

    Now then, if the BG (aka: bottom-of-the-food-chain, pond-scum sucking, sub-human theif,) chooses to "take it to the next level," that would be his (it's) choice, not mine.

    As weird as things get in court, I hope I never have to argue this in front of a jury. But as a matter of principal, I think the train of thought is on solid ground.

    Fortunately, if you find a theif, you've found a coward. Faced with an angry, armed property owner, they tend to run. If not, then whatever they may do next would likely be a "forceable felony*," and as such, they are elevated to the rank of "legitimate target." (* in the state of Florida)

    Of course, I'm not a lawyer, but I have seen them on TV.

    mm
    Political Correctness has now "evolved" into Political Cowardice.


  2. #17
    Senior Member Array A1C Lickey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,059
    Thanks mm, you put it into words much better then I could.
    TSgt. Lickey

    It takes a college degree to break'em;
    and a high school education to fix'em!

  3. #18
    New Member Array Jonny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2

    Vision

    This post reminds me of the constant need to keep peace within me, not consider it something "out there" that has to be protected from savages.

    We see our own discomforts and fears in our world, and when we act as if the horror and harm is, again, "out there" without checking our own state of mind, we find threats in every direction.

    With all due respect for the skills, interests and good nature of the author of this post, I find the content to be a clear example of projecting our anxiety and fear on the outside world.

    That "punk" that you saw could have easily read YOUR wrestless vibe, and been eyeing you in the same manner that you conveyed to him -- defensiveness and fear.

    You projected a grand scenario of "potential danger" on him and his friends -- it goes hand-in-hand with what I see in many folks these days who feel the need to be armed.

    That man could have been the guy who earlier up the road helped you change a flat tire, or smiled at you when you made a joke about the weather.

    YOU projected negative, unwarranted thoughts on him, without any background or information.

    You have to check that. Citizens of this great world have to check that, and not tumble into the self-aggrandizing false power feelings and negative expectations that carrying a bullet machine can give us.

    It's an attitude that will kill us -- maybe slowly, with ugly emotional disease, and maybe fast, pulling ourselves into trouble with our magnetic expectation of disaster.

    You are what you think and perceive, and you are in charge of both.

    No personal disrespect intended here, author.

    We have to treat our fellow citizens, and one day, our global human community, with the best of our hearts.



    Jonny

  4. #19
    Senior Member Array madmike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Spring Hill, FL
    Posts
    750
    Very interesting and very eloquently written.

    But I'm having some difficulty putting it into some sort of context with the subject of this thread. It comes across to me as beinger seriously disconnected from the subject at hand.

    Was this cut-and-pasted into this thread?

    "We have to treat our fellow citizens, and one day, our global human community, with the best of our hearts."

    In no way, shape, or from, do I consider a thief to be a "fellow citizen." Our "global human communtiy" is made up of sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. The "best of my heart" compells me to protect my familly, my property, and myself with all means at my disposal.

    mm
    Political Correctness has now "evolved" into Political Cowardice.

  5. #20
    New Member Array Jonny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2

    I understand

    Hey Mike,

    No, that's all my writing, and I understand how it can seem on the fringe of the context.

    I've been re-evaluating my CC needs really deeply lately.
    I'm 50 years old, and have adored firearms all of my life, and of course it's led to handgun/combat arms ownership and whatnot.

    CC was just made legal here in Ohio, and I've just been giving my own relationship to this privilege a lot of thought. A whole lot of thought.

    In doing so, what always pops up is SCENARIO. When will I need it, when will I use it?

    And it's when I think of those things that I come to the very kind of thinking that I wrote above. I ask myself, will I be LOOKING for trouble, now that I'm "prepared" for it?

    My answer was a resounding "YES".
    And for me, that's no good.

    I'm going to check the "me" out in the equation a bit more, and try to think that my fellow citizens on the average are my partners.

    Not all of them, for sure, and globally, well, there are your wolves, but as much as I can, I'm not calling strangers "punks" without knowing that they really are.

    That was my point. Attitude precedes performance.

    My "best of my heart" is just trying to expand a bit beyond what you so nicely put about family and such. Our world is US. I want to get beyond guns-at-humans one day. It is a wonderful goal ...


    Best,

    Jonny

  6. #21
    Senior Member Array madmike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Spring Hill, FL
    Posts
    750
    Johnny,

    Thanks for the clairifacation. Makes a lot more sense to me now.

    Looks to me like you've done a lot of introspective thinking. Maybe more than most. Nothing wrong with that, at all.

    Since you brought it up, I'm 53, turning 54 this month. In my younger days, I think that by being "prepared," I might have had a tendency towards "looking for wrongs to be righted."

    Now, being armed, I will give more thought to avoiding situations that could result in a confrontation, because I don't want to put myself into a position of having to shoot.

    If it does happen, it will be because the other guy put me in that postion, and not something I've brought on myself.

    So, if you do feel that you might go "looking for trouble" because you are "prepared for it," then I would have to say that going armed would be wrong.

    But since you do know yourself, (in a way that no one else can,) why not work on that? A little "behavior modification therapy."

    It can be done.

    Mike
    Political Correctness has now "evolved" into Political Cowardice.

  7. #22
    Member Array Kompact9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    427
    Chris,

    I cannot say this enough...being aware is not paranoia. The skill/will to survive in this day and age is necessary IMHO. The use of the window to observe is a good reminder...

    Regards,

    Fred
    noli nothis permittere te terere...

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array Ti Carry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Under Cover
    Posts
    2,035
    Well I checked "me" and I am not looking for trouble at all, ever.

    Now that I can carry I look for even less trouble and avoid it at all cost if I can. Having and using a CCW is the last resort, meaning that if all else fails then you have to do what you have to do.

    I don't think there are many if any on this forum that is looking for any trouble just because they CC. Most if not all have become just the opposite becoming more aware of potential problems and avoiding the problems if at all possible.

    You can continue to think that everyone is good, kind and gentle but the reality is there are bad people in this world, many bad people! and you or I will one day become a victim if we allow the evil trying to do us harm to succeed.

    There is a big difference in being prepared and aware when one is concealed carrying and being prepared and purposely looking for trouble and wanting to use your new found power to destroy a human being because they looked at you wrong.

    Your right if you feel it's the latter of the two, I strongly suggest you put your weapon down until you decide that your CCW is for self protection for you and your family only and you are conscious of what is going on around you with the ultimate goal being able to avoid trouble or a potential threat.

    This is what makes up a person to be a good CC advocate, one that can be responsible and caring and at the same time be aware.

    Many people mistake kindness for weakness and feel that it's an invitation to inflict harm and take advantage of someone and that would be a very big mistake for a BG to underestimate a kind CC advocate that is trying to avoid these very things but will stand up and fight when it is necessary to protect themselves there family or others.

    Ti
    Train and train hard, you might not get a second chance to make a first impression!

    I vote for Monica Lewinsky's Ex-Boyfriend's Wife for President.....Not!

  9. #24
    Assistant Administrator
    Array P95Carry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    South West PA
    Posts
    25,484
    Jonny - with all due respect to your writings and thoughts - no way am I on the lookout for trouble per se - I am someone who wishes for a peaceful existence and would dearly wish to expect and find that in others.
    That "punk" that you saw could have easily read YOUR wrestless vibe, and been eyeing you in the same manner that you conveyed to him -- defensiveness and fear.
    I had no ''restless vibe'' - that is where you are mistaken and of course were not there to witness the event. I pride myself most of the time in giving out, if anything, vibes of self assurance and calm. I long ago ceased any overtly aggessive posturing and just try to keep myself to myself quietly - that is pretty much how others will see me.

    Remember too - there are ways of being looked at - there is casual and benign - when folks might just be so bored they are looking for some interest, studying a vehicle perhaps. Then there is the almost overtly aggressive, challenging even, way that is indicative of less than good intent - something maybe interpretted as the ''Spidey Sense'' - it makes one uncomfortable. Some ''interest'' can be just downright ''too much interest''. Again - you did not see what I did.

    It would quite pointless me carrying if in fact I was to follow your route - I would no longer be looking to protect myself if something should happen - I would almost be a waiting victim. It is true that the good in the world does far outweight the bad but the bad is there - sufficient that it requires guarding against - it is a fact, however much we may wish otherwise.

    Therefore I am an alert and prepared person - not someone with a sense of megalomania just because I have a gun. I actually have a distinct aversion to conflict and even more so to the possibility of having to injure someone or cause their death. Bottom line tho is the simple ''him or me'' should anything ever go down, which I hope will not occur and statistically will not, but I still wish to be capable, for myself and my loved ones.

    You open quite a can of worms and while your altruism is laudable I do not think it fits in with the basic concept of carry and self defence. There is much I could write on this but will leave it there for now.

    Welcome BTW - which I have as yet not had the opportunity to say
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  10. #25
    Lead Moderator
    Array rocky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    16,026
    Usually when something feels wrong, it is. Dress doesn't usually set off the alarms as does body language and facial expression. My brother is just now understanding this. He could be a mean, nasty looking fella. Long beard, leather jacket, ragged clothing. But his demeanor is such , that women with small children will stop and ask him for directions. I don't think many(if anyone here) is looking for a fight.

  11. #26
    Senior Member
    Array sojourner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    1,054

    keep the thread going

    I am enjoying the thread and recent posts have made me be more introspective. It is a good thing that we can discuss our thoughts in a civil manner and in a spirit of understanding.

    Kudos to all that posted.

  12. #27
    XD9
    XD9 is offline
    Member Array XD9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Somewhere in Utah
    Posts
    134
    This is why I enjoy the board so much. People say what they have to say and they do it with respect and kindness. This shows me the kind of CC holders there really are on the board. Not looking for trouble but able to stand up and be counted when needed. Good job!

    I believe that people are the same way in person as they appear to be here in writing and it makes me feel optomistic.

    Thanks
    There are 2 sounds in the world that strike more fear than any others. A click when you should hear a bang and a bang when you should hear a click.

  13. #28
    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Richmond VA
    Posts
    1,068
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonny
    This post reminds me of the constant need to keep peace within me, not consider it something "out there" that has to be protected from savages...
    You raise some interesting and thoughtful points. You may want to reconsider who is projecting what on whom, though.

    From Chris's description, I found myself wondering if these potential predators where keying to the fact that Chris was *not* acting like prey, and were studying him to figure out why. Someone else, here, mentioned 'sheepdogs recognizing other sheepdogs'; predators recognize sheepdogs, too. An interesting consideration as we contemplate carry.

    It seems to me that an important part of awareness in carry is constant analysis of one's perceptions, as you point out. Chris clearly demonstrated such critical thought as he analyzed why he was alerting on these strangers at the gas pump. He was uncomfortable, but why? It is important to figure out why we are alerting, especially when our senses are giving us vague warnings. It is also important to learn when to trust and act on those senses, without excessive and time-consuming navel-gazing, instead of doubting them. Our responses to body language and eye contact are rooted in very basic, primitive survival instincts. Learning to pay attention to them, and to interpret them accurately, gives us an edge over those who walk around insensate to (or willfully ignoring) their senses.

    It is easy to declare Chris' concerns as "negative" and "unwarranted" after the fact, especially since nothing happened. But your conclusion is no more meaningful than it would be to declare that wearing your seatbelt was "negative" and "unwarranted" after an uneventful car trip because there was no accident. The caution and precautions are no less prudent. Chris' concerns about these guys may not have been proven, but neither was their goodwill.

    If these guys were causing Chris' senses to alert, then he was wise to pay attention and try to determine why. There is a reason why we respond with discomfort to intent staring: it is predatory, aggressive behavior. You ignore such behavior at your own risk. Since the dawn of time, human experience has taught us that only members of our own tribe are our partners; strangers are potential threats, to be treated with caution.

    Attitude does, indeed, preceed performance. You are wise to be thinking long and hard about carry, given your concerns about your own behavior. Just try not to project your own discomfort and fears onto others.

    Our forefathers considered the right to self-defense (and so, the right to keep and bear arms in defense of ourselves and others) to be a fundamental human right, not a privilege bestowed by the State. I choose to exercise that right with appropriate goodwill toward my fellow man. While I do not assume ill will, neither do I discount its possibility. Like most here, I hope for the best, but I prepare for the worst.
    - Tom
    You have the power to donate life.

  14. #29
    Assistant Administrator
    Array P95Carry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    South West PA
    Posts
    25,484
    Tom - nice appraisal, thanks - you are pretty much on the nail.

    One thing I only remembered a while ago - playing this thru again mentally - I noticed at least once when I was able to take on board what the two in the car were up to - that not only were they looking pretty intently but also seemingly engaged in quite animated conversation.

    That may be totally insignificant but - being the pessimist - was it just possible that they were summing me up as a ''mark'' - who knows? I certainly was not inwardly comfortable with my impressions let's just say that.

    Further thought also has not made me feel I should have acted any differently - as can often be the case.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  15. #30
    Senior Member Array gddyup's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Derry, NH
    Posts
    988
    They that are on their guard and appear ready to receive their adversaries, are in much less danger of being attacked than the supine, secure and negligent.

    Author: Benjamin Franklin
    Firefighter/EMT
    "You've never lived until you've almost died. For those who fight for it, life has a flavor the protected will never know" - T.R.

    <----My LT was unhappy that I did not have my PASS-Tag at that fire. But I found the body so he said he would overlook it. :)

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. A responsibility to preserve life
    By glockman10mm in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: March 28th, 2010, 10:21 AM
  2. Personal Responsibility
    By Warthogspec in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: August 6th, 2009, 02:38 PM
  3. Complete responsibility
    By DaveInTexas in forum General Firearm Discussion
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: November 23rd, 2008, 11:57 AM
  4. Responsibility
    By JetGirl in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: January 5th, 2008, 01:54 PM
  5. Someone who never heard of responsibility
    By paramedic70002 in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: August 4th, 2007, 12:23 PM

Search tags for this page

who said attitude precedes performance

Click on a term to search for related topics.

» Log in

User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!

» DefensiveCarry Sponsors