NY Times Article: Getting a legal handgun in New York [City]?

This is a discussion on NY Times Article: Getting a legal handgun in New York [City]? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; About 37,000 people, out of 10 million (or about .37%) have permits in NYC. In other words, dont hold your breath! Annie Hall, Get Your ...

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Thread: NY Times Article: Getting a legal handgun in New York [City]?

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    VIP Member Array JonInNY's Avatar
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    Post NY Times Article: Getting a legal handgun in New York [City]?

    About 37,000 people, out of 10 million (or about .37%) have permits in NYC. In other words, dont hold your breath!

    Annie Hall, Get Your Gun - City Room Blog - NYTimes.com

    Annie Hall, Get Your Gun
    By Sewell Chan

    Plaxico Burress, the Giants wide receiver who faces handgun-possession charges after he accidentally shot himself in a Manhattan nightclub, does not have a license to own or carry a gun in New York City. But about 37,000 people do — a figure that might come as a surprise to those who know that the city has some of the toughest gun laws in the nation and a mayor at the forefront of the fight against illegal trafficking.

    So how does one go about getting a legal handgun in New York?

    There are seven categories of handgun licenses in the city, and the rules for getting a license are complex. Below are the various handgun licenses, with the number of license holders, as of Oct. 30. The licenses vary in how they govern the owning or carrying of a handgun; New York does not have a separate permit for buying a handgun.
    • Licenses held by retired law enforcement officers (14,809). Retired police officers are usually permitted to keep and carry a personal handgun.
    • Premises licenses, residential (14,439). Licenses issued to residents to keep a handgun at home.
    • “Carry licenses” for security guards (3,241). Licenses issued to actively employed security guards to carry a holstered handgun during their regular work shifts. The guard may carry the gun directly to or from his or her residence and workplace. At all other times, the handgun must be stored, unloaded, in a locked container, either at home (within New York State) or the workplace.
    • “Full carry” licenses (2,291). Licenses issued to residents who have demonstrated a specific need to carry a holstered handgun on their persons. The category includes people who have received threats or who regularly handle large amounts of cash.
    • “Special carry” licenses (1,046). Similar to “full carry” licenses, these licenses are issued to residents of New York State who live outside of New York City but have gone through the valid process for carrying a handgun in their home jurisdiction.
    • Premises licenses, commercial (872). Licenses issued to business owners to keep a firearm at their place of business.
    • “Limited carry” licenses (241). Similar to “full carry” licenses, except that the license carries specific conditions and restrictions — for example, carrying a holstered handgun while making a cash delivery from a place of business to a specific bank branch. The handgun must be stored at the place of business listed at all other times.

    Applicants for a handgun license in the city must apply in person; submit many documents; pay a $340 fee and a fingerprinting fee ($94.25 for applicants who use the fingerprint-scanning machine or $105.25 for those who submit ink fingerprints); and demonstrate that they have received safety training.

    In a separate process, New York City requires that all rifles and shotguns be registered, which is not the case in the rest of the state. Many of those license holders are hunters. They are permitted to transport their guns and ammunition in separate locked containers, directly to and from an authorized range or hunting location. All guns must be unloaded while being transported. There are 21,439 rifle and shotgun licenses. The registration fee is $140 for three years; there is a one-time, $90 fingerprinting fee for rifle and shotgun owners.

    In general, among those ineligible for licenses are people who have been arrested or convicted of crimes, including domestic violence, and people with histories of mental illness.

    Of the seven categories, the “full carry” handgun licenses have drawn the most attention. In 2006, The New York Post reported that a number of well-known figures in business, entertainment and politics were those with permits to carry concealed weapons, including Ronald S. Lauder, the cosmetics executive; Donald J. Trump, the real estate investor; Edgar Bronfman Sr., founder of Seagrams; the actors Robert De Niro and Harvey Keitel; the radio hosts Howard Stern and Don Imus; and the State Senate majority leader at the time, Joseph L. Bruno, who lives upstate but had an office in Manhattan.

    That year, the mayor suggested that the city might reduce the number of gun licenses, saying: “We’ve taken a look at it to see whether we couldn’t have fewer. I can tell you one thing: We will keep it to as a minimum as we possibly can.”

    Mr. Bloomberg asked Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly to look at the issue, and added: “If you want a gun permit, you should have to really show that your life is in danger, and that having a gun will protect you, will improve the chances of you surviving.”

    In 2007, The Post reported that other gun-license holders included Donald Trump Jr.; the Queens district attorney, Richard A. Brown; the Westchester County district attorney, Janet DiFiore; Tommy Mottola, the music executive; Isaac Perlmutter, chief executive of Marvel Comics; the lawyers Barry Slotnick and Raoul Felder; the publisher Robert Forbes; and the political activist Fernando Mateo.

    Paul J. Browne, a deputy commissioner and the Police Department’s chief spokesman, said the number of “full carry” permits had steadily declined, from 2,876 in 2005, to 2,565 in 2006, 2,415 in 2007, and 2,291 as of the end of October.

    An applicant who is denied a license may appeal in writing to the Police Department’s License Division; if the appeal is denied, the applicant has the right to file a challenge in State Supreme Court. Such challenges are rarely successful.

    As with many gun-related issues, the licensing of residents to carry concealed handguns varies widely by state. (There is also variation in laws covering long guns. New York State is one of a handful with a ban on assault weapons, defined in the law as semiautomatic rifles with the ability to accept a detachable magazine, in combination with other characteristics from a long list.)

    Two states, Wisconsin and Illinois, prohibit carrying a concealed handgun outright. Another 35 states say that local law enforcement authorities “shall issue” concealed-weapon permits to residents who meet certain criteria. Another 11 states, including New York, say local law enforcement authorities “may issue” such permits. And two remaining states, Alaska and Vermont, require no permit to carry a concealed handgun.

    The National Rifle Association has argued that giving local law enforcement authorities discretion to issue gun-carry permits results in favoritism for rich and influential people. The mayor’s office “has given concealed-carry permits to the Hollywood elite, friends of the mayor, and the financially powerful — whereas the regular Joes and Janes who probably need it more are plain flat out of luck,” an N.R.A. spokesman told The Post in 2006.

    The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence has the opposite view. “We support what the vast majority of law enforcement supports: the vast majority of law enforcement in both Wisconsin and Illinois feels that having no issuance of concealed handguns is the way to go,” said Brian Malte, director of state legislation at the Brady Campaign.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch; Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
    -- Benjamin Franklin

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Array PaulJ's Avatar
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    So how many people got shot by those 2,291 "full carry" license holders, and how many less did they shoot after they reduced the number? Must be a huge issue in NYC having all those law abiding gun owners running around! (jk of course)
    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. (Thomas Jefferson)

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    VIP Member Array JonInNY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulJ View Post
    So how many people got shot by those 2,291 "full carry" license holders, and how many less did they shoot after they reduced the number? Must be a huge issue in NYC having all those law abiding gun owners running around! (jk of course)
    Very good point. I don't have the statistics offhand, but I'm pretty sure it was none. I'm almost positive that every firearm homicide was commited by a person that did not have a permit!
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch; Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
    -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Distinguished Member Array bandit383's Avatar
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    I thought the article was pretty balanced outlining the restrictions...even going so far to compare to other states. All in all...I wouldn't give it a thumbs down...but a neutral.

    Rick

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    VIP Member Array JonInNY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandit383 View Post
    I thought the article was pretty balanced outlining the restrictions...even going so far to compare to other states. All in all...I wouldn't give it a thumbs down...but a neutral.

    Rick
    Yes, the article was balanced, but my "thumbs down" was not on the article but on the subject. But I did change the icon.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch; Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
    -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Member Array Mxyzptlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonInNY View Post
    The mayor’s office “has given concealed-carry permits to the Hollywood elite, friends of the mayor, and the financially powerful — whereas the regular Joes and Janes who probably need it more are plain flat out of luck,” an N.R.A. spokesman told The Post in 2006.
    Seems to me the two classes need a gun about the same amount.

    Actually, seems to me that need of each class cannot be reliably defined or measured.

    Seems to me that need of each class shouldn't need to be defined or measured...

    The 2nd Amendment doesn' have classes in it.

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    Senior Member Array puncho's Avatar
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    Why does Don Imus have a carry permit for NY?

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    Senior Member Array HowardCohodas's Avatar
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    A thought experiment is always informative and sometimes fun.

    I wonder if permit denial might be less frequent if there were consequences. Suppose the person(s) signing the denial to someone requesting a permit because of prior attempts on their life could be held responsible if the applicant were subsequently murdered as feared. By held responsible, I'm thinking of prosecution for not preventing a murder for which there was prior knowledge, misprision of felony.

    Although not "misprision of felony," there is case law of a person being successufully prosecuted for second degree murder of a young boy by that person's dog. The "should have known" standard could be creatively applied.

    Sounds like a great Law & Order script.

    Quote Originally Posted by puncho View Post
    Why does Don Imus have a carry permit for NY?
    Because he has friends in high places. Or so he bragged when I watched his show when it was broadcast on TV.
    Howard
    I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop!!
    Politically Incorrect Self Defense

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    Distinguished Member Array Anubis's Avatar
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    hilarious

    So 2300 people in a city of 7 or 8 million carry legal handguns, and the mayor wants still more gun control.

    Quote Originally Posted by HowardCohodas View Post
    Sounds like a great Law & Order script.
    L&O is about as anti-2A as Bloomberg, so I can't see that happening. I saw one recently where the detectives found some kind of NRA marksmanship certificate in an assault victim's apartment and looked at her like she was wearing an SS uniform. Then one detective (played by Sisto) touched her to provoke a self-defense response so he had a pretext to arrest her.

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    Member Array Ricebrnr's Avatar
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    Escape from New York here and as I always say:

    In NYC only criminals are ALLOWED to have guns.

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    By the arguments some here make, this is all perfectly O.K. because these restrictions were voted for by the elected city council and the state legislature, and 2A is only an impediment to Uncle Sam.

    This line of reasoning must be "correct" [sarcasm of course] otherwise the situation could not exist in NY as it has.

    I really like the idea put forth of holding those who deny a license responsible for consequences of the denial. One bad incident would turn things around.

    Too bad it ain't gonna happen.

    Looking at the article, it is almost guaranteed that there are many times more illegal gun ownership and possession in NYC than legal; if you exclude the licenses issued to former cops and working security guards. Maybe even if you don't exclude these two.

    I can tell you one thing. I once witnessed the aftermath of an armed robbery near Crescent Ave. in The Bronx. For anyone who knows the area or cares, that is a block away from the old Bronx HS of Science. (I was too poor a student to ever go there.) I'm sure the holdup man didn't have a license. Well, at least the odds are he didn't. Wonder what would have happened if the proprietor had a premise license.

    Only 872 premise licenses issued in a city that size is unbelievable. No wonder there are no stores in huge residential sections of the city.

    Still, I don't fault Bloomberg. He is only LAST in a long line of Mayors with similar thinking on the matter.

    So, just in case someone from his office is reading this, Mr. Mayor, come on down and visit me. We'll go shooting. I know you can afford the gun rental and the ammo, but I'll spring for it. You'll have fun, and you'll learn something. I'll tell you why I wouldn't live in the city ever again; or visit if I can help myself.

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    Member Array tabsr's Avatar
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    Wrong Info

    " Another 35 states say that local law enforcement authorities “shall issue” concealed-weapon permits to residents who meet certain criteria."

    In Minnesota it is shall issue and the state needs to prove why denied.
    "Politicians and Bureaucrats, depend very much on the complicity of their victims, and like criminals, are flummoxed when we don't play the victim role."

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    VIP Member Array JonInNY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HowardCohodas View Post
    A thought experiment is always informative and sometimes fun.

    I wonder if permit denial might be less frequent if there were consequences. Suppose the person(s) signing the denial to someone requesting a permit because of prior attempts on their life could be held responsible if the applicant were subsequently murdered as feared. By held responsible, I'm thinking of prosecution for not preventing a murder for which there was prior knowledge, misprision of felony.

    Although not "misprision of felony," there is case law of a person being successufully prosecuted for second degree murder of a young boy by that person's dog. The "should have known" standard could be creatively applied.

    Sounds like a great Law & Order script.
    That might be a slippery slope, Howard. To have that kind of culpability based on the possibility of a future event does boggle the mind though. I think we should keep it as a script for L&O.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch; Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
    -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Member Array TonyB's Avatar
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    Bloomberg is a moron.Let's see,God forbid we serve trans fats in any NYC eateries,but let's just let the bad guys have guns....there's good priorities.
    "Just because I'm paranoid,doesn't mean they're NOT after me...."

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    Guns and trans fat

    Quote Originally Posted by TonyB View Post
    Bloomberg is a moron.Let's see,God forbid we serve trans fats in any NYC eateries,but let's just let the bad guys have guns....there's good priorities.
    For the record, I've been eating fat, trans fat, and all the other stuff that is allegedly bad for you for 66 years. I'm still here. My cholesterol and triglycerides are just fine. My blood pressure, eh, not so fine but that is due to a somewhat rare kidney issue. My arteries are clean as a whistle.

    My great grandfather lived to 97, in Czarist Russia and Stalins' Russia. Medical care wasn't available.

    My mother ate all the wrong stuff; fried chicken skin and chicken fat on bread with lots of salt--- sometimes that was all they could get for food. She lived to 91. She also smoked a pack 1/2 a day for 40 years.

    So, what does this have to do with our topic?

    Sometimes the obvious answers are wrong. Gun control doesn't prevent crime just as diet doesn't equal destiny, and I'm not so sure about second hand smoke being a real health issue either. If it were, I'd have not made it out of my teens because both parents were chimneys: and it was a small apartment with little ventilation.

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