reciprocity when moving across the country

This is a discussion on reciprocity when moving across the country within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hi everyone, I'm going to be embarking to the great white north of Michigan soon and leaving my home in AZ permanently. I have been ...

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Thread: reciprocity when moving across the country

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    Distinguished Member Array pcon's Avatar
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    Question reciprocity when moving across the country

    Hi everyone, I'm going to be embarking to the great white north of Michigan soon and leaving my home in AZ permanently. I have been perusing around Handgunlaw.us looking at the reciprocity maps for the Arizona CCW permit. I've also been looking at the car carry pdf. My question is this: if I am in a state that has reciprocity with AZ, do I need to adhere to their car carry laws? Or are those simply for those who do not have a CC permit? Most importantly, I'm a little concerned about states who require registration/permits for handguns. If I have a CCW, can I still get stuck with not registering my gun if I'm just driving through?

    Any help you DCers can provide will be much appreciated. Also, to all the MI DCers, when I get there (Ann Arbor) let's go shooting!
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    If passing through, you do not need to register. Otherwise, when in Rome, do as the Romans do.
    Nobody cares what AZ law is in Michigan or any other state in between.
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    I'll take a stab at it!

    1) Yes, you need to abide by the laws of the state you are in, even when your permit is from another state. In other words, if they let you carry in schools in Az (and this is just an example), but Michigan does not allow it, then carrying in a school in Michigan would be a crime.

    2) Usually when you give up your residence in a state (or county in my case), your permit is invalidated. I don't know if Az works that way or not.

    3) With respect to "car carry", you need to obey the laws as they apply to citizens of that state--for instance in Iowa the gun and mags would have to be unloaded and kept in the furthest extent of the vehicle in a sealed container that is too large to conceal on the body. Anything else will get you in trouble.
    In states like Wisconsin or Illinois, where they don't believe you should own a handgun let alone carry one (kidding, kidding), you'd need to examine their code in order to legally transport the gun in your car, and God help you--DON'T CARRY IT.

    The safest course of action--seriously--is to contact the attorney general for each state that you plan to travel through and ask your questions. Have them send you a written response on their letterhead, and keep those with you as you travel.

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    Distinguished Member Array pcon's Avatar
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    Right...I know that when I get to Michigan, I obey Michigan's laws and whatnot...but I guess my question would be say I am driving through...Missouri. According to the map, they honor AZ's CCW permit but in the car carry PDF it says it's a crime to carry concealed UNLESS the person is over 21 (which I am) and they are "...transporting a concealable firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle, so long as such concealable firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed...or is traveling in a continuous journey peaceably through this state." Sec 571.030.

    I interpret this to mean that since I have an AZ CCW, I am lawfull possessor of the said concealable firearm and since I am traveling through in a continuous journey peaceably, that it's ok to conceal. Am I on the right path do you think?
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    There is a good web site for Michigan Gun Owners where you may be ablr to get the answers to your questions. Check out Michigan Gun Owners they are very helpful. The law regarding registration changes 1/9/09 - but i am not how the changes apply to "registering" your guns when you move from out of state.

    Also, you have to be a Michigan resident for 6 months before you can apply for a CPL (concealed pistol license) here.

    Michigan has several "Criminal Enterprise Zones" AKA Gun Free Zones - schools & school property, casinos, day care centers, child placing agencies, bars & taverns where that gets their primary income is from alcohol sales by the glass), sports arenas, stadiums, hospitals, entertainment facilities where the seating capacity is over 2500 (i.e. movie theaters), dormitories, or college classrooms, and churchesm mosques, synangogues, and other places of worship (unless you have permission of the pastor or head of the congregation).

    Also, check out this website: MSP - Michigan's Concealed Pistol Law - FAQs

    for FAQ's about Michigans CPL laws (state Police Website).

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    You are always subject to the laws of the jurisdiction you are in at the moment.

    Think of it this way, with each higher "level" being more localized rules & regulations:

    1st: On US soil (lower 48, AK,HI, territories, military bases) you are subject to federal law.
    2nd: Subject to state law of the state you are currently in.
    3rd: Subject to any special county laws.
    4th: Subject to any local ordinance (city or town).

    and finally to any special rules i.e. posted places of no carry.

    So until you cross out of AZ, you are under AZ laws + local laws, then when you enter NM, UT or CO, you are subject to that state + local laws. I always think of the law in terms of concentric circles, biggest circle being federal, the smallest being the piece of ground you are standing (or driving on) at any given moment.

    Remember also, "I didn't know" is no excuse if you get caught violating a law or ordinance.

    Hope this helps.
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    Missouri

    Quote Originally Posted by pcon View Post
    Right...I know that when I get to Michigan, I obey Michigan's laws and whatnot...but I guess my question would be say I am driving through...Missouri. According to the map, they honor AZ's CCW permit but in the car carry PDF it says it's a crime to carry concealed UNLESS the person is over 21 (which I am) and they are "...transporting a concealable firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle, so long as such concealable firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed...or is traveling in a continuous journey peaceably through this state." Sec 571.030.
    Missouri-- recognizes cc permits from all other states.

    I think your question is, "Am I allowed to carry it on my person?

    My understanding is that two different things are being conflated here. 1) Licensed concealed carry;
    2) Unlicensed possession.

    It sounds to me like MO is saying that it is OK for unlicensed possession in the car if the person is over 21, otherwise allowed, and on a peaceable journey. This is more lenient

    You seem to meet both criteria and unless I completely missed something, are able to lawfully carry concealed while in MO.

    I'm sure someone from MO will chime in, maybe Grady, and you could private message him, and get clarification, but I am fairly certain you can have your gun on your person in MO because your AZ license is recognized. And of course you can e-mail MO's officials and check their web sites for further clarity.

    Unfortunately, I just chucked my own copy of MO laws on the matter.

    Also, I think your bigger problem is going to be the portion of your journey through IL. I don't see how you can get to Michigan without going through IL. There, I'd have it locked, unloaded, disassembled, in the trunk, inside another locked suitcase, with ammo stored separately and not in the magazines. And I'd try to make a point of not stopping, especially overnight, within IL.

    Iowa, just put it in the trunk, unloaded, inside something locked and too big to be concealed on your person.

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    Distinguished Member Array pcon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Missouri-- recognizes cc permits from all other states.

    I think your question is, "Am I allowed to carry it on my person?

    My understanding is that two different things are being conflated here. 1) Licensed concealed carry;
    2) Unlicensed possession.

    It sounds to me like MO is saying that it is OK for unlicensed possession in the car if the person is over 21, otherwise allowed, and on a peaceable journey. This is more lenient

    You seem to meet both criteria and unless I completely missed something, are able to lawfully carry concealed while in MO.

    I'm sure someone from MO will chime in, maybe Grady, and you could private message him, and get clarification, but I am fairly certain you can have your gun on your person in MO because your AZ license is recognized. And of course you can e-mail MO's officials and check their web sites for further clarity.

    Unfortunately, I just chucked my own copy of MO laws on the matter.

    Also, I think your bigger problem is going to be the portion of your journey through IL. I don't see how you can get to Michigan without going through IL. There, I'd have it locked, unloaded, disassembled, in the trunk, inside another locked suitcase, with ammo stored separately and not in the magazines. And I'd try to make a point of not stopping, especially overnight, within IL.

    Iowa, just put it in the trunk, unloaded, inside something locked and too big to be concealed on your person.

    That was my interpretation on it too. Unfortunately, we are planning to stop and stay with some friends overnight in ILL. I figured I'd stop at the last exit in MO, unload and lock everything up and not touch it again until we're in IN.
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    Welcome to Michigan! Michigan recognizes all other State's permits. We have a State preemption law, which says State Law trumps any local laws. This means there are no convoluted city ordinances/laws/statutes restricting the carry of firearms beyond restrictions imposed by the State. A few locals have tried it, they've been struck down. That's the good news.

    The bad news... Ann Arbor, where you are going, is a bastion of Liberalism. Some may not see that as bad. Let me then explain it this way, they are VERY Anit gun. The populace as a whole (U of M and such, this is the center of Liberal thinking for this part of the Country).

    Now, the worse news. Michigan honors all State permits, but only for residents of the issuing State. Presuming you are moving here (sounds like it) this will present the following problem. At some point, I presume you will need to get a Michigan Drivers License in order to establish residency. Since Michigan does not offer non resident permits, and your Az. permit will not be honored once you establish a Michigan address, there will be a time that you will not have a valid permit.

    How long it takes to get a permit depends on what county you reside in. We are set up on a County Gun Board system. Yes, we are shall issue. But the time it takes to run through the system can vary greatly. But before you can begin the process, you need to meet Michigan's requirements, which according to what I just found on the site I'm about to link for you, include "Resident of Michigan for at least 6 months". This was found under "requirements to obtain a permit" on the Michigan State Police Concealed Pistol Law FAQ here.

    Hope you have a pleasant an uneventful trip. Watch out for the pistol free zones (listed in the FAQ I linked).
    Regards, T Bone.


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    Quote Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
    Welcome to Michigan! Michigan recognizes all other State's permits. We have a State preemption law, which says State Law trumps any local laws. This means there are no convoluted city ordinances/laws/statutes restricting the carry of firearms beyond restrictions imposed by the State. A few locals have tried it, they've been struck down. That's the good news.

    The bad news... Ann Arbor, where you are going, is a bastion of Liberalism. Some may not see that as bad. Let me then explain it this way, they are VERY Anit gun. The populace as a whole (U of M and such, this is the center of Liberal thinking for this part of the Country).

    Now, the worse news. Michigan honors all State permits, but only for residents of the issuing State. Presuming you are moving here (sounds like it) this will present the following problem. At some point, I presume you will need to get a Michigan Drivers License in order to establish residency. Since Michigan does not offer non resident permits, and your Az. permit will not be honored once you establish a Michigan address, there will be a time that you will not have a valid permit.

    How long it takes to get a permit depends on what county you reside in. We are set up on a County Gun Board system. Yes, we are shall issue. But the time it takes to run through the system can vary greatly. But before you can begin the process, you need to meet Michigan's requirements, which according to what I just found on the site I'm about to link for you, include "Resident of Michigan for at least 6 months". This was found under "requirements to obtain a permit" on the Michigan State Police Concealed Pistol Law FAQ here.

    Hope you have a pleasant an uneventful trip. Watch out for the pistol free zones (listed in the FAQ I linked).
    For someone moving from AZ to MI...the above sounds like 'code' for...You're going to be 'screwed' for about 6 months...
    But then moving back to MI to look for work, you may already be screwed. OMO

    I do wish you the best...keep us posted on your 'trials and tribulations'.

    Stay armed...for a while...stay safe!
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    If you are to be a permanent resident, get a resident's CCW. My 2 cents worth. Otherwise, it could be construed as "going around" MI law.
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    Not sure that is legal

    Quote Originally Posted by pcon View Post
    That was my interpretation on it too. Unfortunately, we are planning to stop and stay with some friends overnight in ILL. I figured I'd stop at the last exit in MO, unload and lock everything up and not touch it again until we're in IN.
    I'm uncertain that is a legal thing to do.

    I think that once you stop, you lose the protection of the Federal law giving you the right to travel from one place where you are allowed to possess to another where you are allowed to possess. I understand in NY, you don't dare even stop for gas or a burger, let alone overnight.

    Don't know how strict IL is, but probably about the same as NY--especially near Chicago.

    I'd either not stop in IL at all, or send everything to yourself through a common carrier; maybe an FFL to FFL.

    Also, are you good to go for Indiana? If memory serves, I think you will need to go through at least a tiny bit of Indiana to get to Michigan. I don't know if the reciprocate AZ; just never had the need for checking on that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Also, are you good to go for Indiana? If memory serves, I think you will need to go through at least a tiny bit of Indiana to get to Michigan. I don't know if the reciprocate AZ; just never had the need for checking on that.

    Yeah, according to Handgunlaw.us, Indiana has reciprocity with Arizona. The only state that does not (that I would be traveling through) is ILL.
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    Do not stop in PRIL....as a former resident of IL, I can tell you that unless you have a Firearm Owners ID card, you COULD be breaking the law.

    I recommend either staying in MO or IN....avoid IL at all costs. They do not care about your personal freedoms. While southern/central IL tends to be more conservative than the northern part of the state (north of Champaign), IL State Police are no-nonsense LEOs who uphold (unConstitutional) state laws regarding firearms.
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    My information is that you may not stop in IL for any reason with firearms in your possession. When I transit IL with firearms, I do not stop for any reason. Except traffic and red lights, but I do not leave the roadway. When I have business in IL I leave the firearms at home. I would suggest you pay a criminal attorney in IL to get an interpretation, or avoid the state. Sad to say you have to do that, but it is the reality.

    If you can get your friend to bag the IL visit, then stay to the south taking I-20/I-30/I-40/I-55/I-24/I-65/I-69/I-94. That keeps you in the free states all the way. I just checked and that will keep you in reciprocal states the whole way, and they don't have strict possession laws anyway. As an added bonus it should keep you out of the winter weather until you get up into Indiana. Just tell her you want to get everything to MI and then you can go to IL for a friends visit. Then you can leave your guns at home and not worry about it.
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