Fine Motor Skills #2
This is a discussion on Fine Motor Skills #2 within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The other thread on this topic was closed due to some folks focusing on the narrow question of safeties versus no safeties, and due to ...
December 27th, 2008 05:17 PM
Fine Motor Skills #2
The other thread on this topic was closed due to some folks focusing on the narrow question of safeties versus no safeties, and due to there already being an active thread on that. But the issue of the various stress-related physiological changes that occur still stands.
Let's kick around this question: What evidence is there of the loss of control during stressful, dangerous, "attack" type situations ... such as, the loss of fine-motor skills, tunnel vision, changes in hearing, changes in other perceptions, changes in memory, and so on? Ever experienced anything like this? Know of specific research or professional documentation about these changes?
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
December 27th, 2008 05:17 PM
December 27th, 2008 05:28 PM
So many variables on how different people act. You can practice, but it is still not the real deal. I am curious to see what others have to say.
Be careful what you wish for. You just might get it ......
December 27th, 2008 05:49 PM
Part of it is related to 'fight or flight'.....Some people crumble or panic under stress, while others don't.....They react & go back to their training.
One of the biggest problems the second group has, is 'tunnel vision'. The become focused on the threat & may ignore other things going on around them.
Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.-Seneca
"If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. If I have a gun, what do I have to be paranoid about?" -Clint Smith
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Jeff Cooper
December 27th, 2008 05:52 PM
After carrying a gun for the past 57 years and being shot twice I can tell you that you do what you have trained to do. Probably the best case to point out how excited you can get is the hunter who emptied his 5 shot lever action at a deer standing about 50 yards away - as the deer walked away he wondered how he could miss at such a close distance. What he, in fact, did, was to work the lever and empty the gun without firing one round. Now, imagine the deer is armed and firing back. You will hardly notice the sound and you do tend to get tunnel vision - thats why they reccomend you learn to fire with both eyes open - there may be a second assailant. In addition you may sweat profusely and may even urinate or have a bowel movement - none of which you will notice until its all over and thats assuming you are still alive.
Its a shame that youth is wasted on the young.
December 27th, 2008 06:43 PM
I'm a football and wrestling coach, and a 24 year 11B and 19D Vet with 5 combat tours and I think I can speak on the subject because they are related.
Facing an opponent in any high stress situation is difficult at best. The mind fills with much and very basic survival skills remain. Intense training can vastly increase those skills we call gross motor movements so good military, police, combat programs do intense drilling with many repetitions.
My own experience as an athlete reinforces my knowledge and my actions the first few times I was in combat underscores my actions.
My first action I fired 5 rounds from an M-1 carbine and I remember only seeing the front sight of my carbine, period. I don't remember even hearing the gun go off.
My second experience was 6 years later and I lay in ambush in a jungle clearing on a night so dark I couldn't see my fingers. When everything happened and my team leader opened up I remember firing, seeing the muzzle blast and I had the moxie to squeeze a Claymore when I was told to. When action stopped we waited until Dawn because what ever was out there had broken off contact. Dawn was about an hour away and as I relaxed I felt a bunch of spent casing under me. When I could see I saw that I had fired about 100+ rounds. We moved to a rally point when we could see but I realized that I had fired at least 5 20 round mags.
My next experience was against a single sniper and I was much more calm but my adrenellan still zoomed up as it did and does now. The difference is that I got a bit of experience I could perform those drills needed when they were needed.
Ed Stock and I served in the 19th Group together and by that time I was pretty experienced, but I still pump up very fast. Now in my 60's I find that I still go 90 miles an hour when I am under pressure.
You will be able to perform gross motor skills under extreme pressure and your intensity of training will vastly increase what those skills are.
I will be doing one more action overseas this summer and I'm preparing for it as hard as when I was 18, the difference I know my limits.
December 27th, 2008 07:07 PM
Loss of fine motor skills, tunnel vision, loss of awareness, sounds the same as buck fever to me. But most get over that rather quickly. As Der Alte described some of the things that take place when shooting at a deer, take place during the fight or flight process in the brain. The more exposure you have to a stressful situation the better you can fight your way through it. Though it is imposable to put yourself through the actual stress you will feel during a SHTF scenario, unless you are dumb enough to have someone fire live rounds at you.
So I ask this question, how do you simulate?
For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the son of man be. Mathew 24:27
December 27th, 2008 07:27 PM
In the military you set up training situations that are consistant with the combat skills that will be needed. For example Combat in Cities. In Berlin we would train taking a building 8-10 times a day using squad tactics. After each time we would go through a After action briefing. the final rounds we used simunitions which make's it much more realistic.
At Ft. Huachuca we have a village built up that we use live fire. The training itself is dangerous, but it is the only way to do it.
For civilians at LFI we use Television scenarios that have to be responded to with a laser gun.
Still, you never know how someone will respond in combat but my experience is that the huge majority will respond as they have been trained.
Can you get complacent in combat, yes. I don't think ever will but perhaps someone a bit tougher than me can.
December 27th, 2008 08:55 PM
There is a large body of research on this topic, most of it done by the military. I don't know if it's available on the internet or not but some of it should be. I will try to find some links.
I couldn't find much. Maybe this will help stimulate discussion.
December 27th, 2008 10:25 PM
The evidence is in the experience, at least for me. I've had that level of adrenaline dump before and its not plesant, and no one is exaggerating the effects. Luckily I did not lock up but I would not be surprised nor would I blame anyone for freezing; I can totally understand it happening. It's just important to make sure you're not the type of person who will freeze. There's no way to know, either, until you get in a situatino like that.
December 28th, 2008 12:19 AM
An interesting read about the brain and physical reactions to lethal encounters.
"Under high stress, the focus and processes of the brain shifts from one of thinking to one of reacting. The focus of operation shifts from the new brain and the hippocampus to the amygdala, also known as the old brain. The adrenaline surge accompanying a high-stress encounter results in increased cortisol, which combines with a decrease in hippocampus functioning and an increase in amygdala functioning to improve the speed of our survival response. The hippocampus and other higher-level brain processes commonly referred to as our thinking brain begin to shut down (McGaugh,
Phrased in another way, the survival system is predisposed to focus all of its resources on responding to the detriment of cognition or conscious thought and slower reasoned decisionmaking. Reactions are enhanced, but decisionmaking speed and ability are reduced as is our ability to make judgments. Cognitive processing deteriorates. Learning and memory becomes less of a priority (Squire,1986)."
‘‘We, the People are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts — not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution.’’
— Abraham Lincoln
December 28th, 2008 12:59 AM
Don't know about others, but the times I've been in dangerous, adrenalin producing situations, it seems time slows down, and the thinking process gets somewhat disconnected, like I'm watching it happen to someone else. My body reacts, seemingly all by itself. Then when it is over, I start shaking like a leaf. Don't know if that is described by anything in the literature, or if it helps you.
December 28th, 2008 02:21 AM
You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
December 28th, 2008 12:16 PM
I have never been in combat. I have never been shot at in a life threatening situation. But still, I have some experience with dangerous, adrenalin producing situations. I was once T-boned by an eighteen wheeler while riding my motorcycle, and all of it is still with me today, 44 years later. I can see the rig comming into the intersection from my right, I was looking right at the driver, and I thought he was looking at me. I was sure he could see me, and was going to stop. As he entered the intersection I knew he wasn't going to stop. I locked up the tires, looking for a way out. There was none. I was on a two lane street with heavy traffic comming at me. I moved as close to the center line as possible. When the truck's front end struck me my sun glasses came off. I can still see them moving away from me in slow motion, and tunnel vision had set in, the glasses were all I could see. I was thrown from the motorcycle, and went up and over the right corner of the front end of the truck. Still in slow motion. I landed on the pavement on my right shoulder, with my head tucked, and rolled right up to my feet. Still in slow motion. I stepped off the first step to go whip that driver, and stepped into a hole that tripped me up, and I fell. Still in slow motion. I looked down at the hole, and saw that there was no hole. Then I saw my right leg. I grabbed it and lifted it up, with the foot and ankle dangleing by very little tissue, the busted bones showing. Still in slow motion. I think that at that point shock set in. The slow motion and tunnel vision went away, and I was aware of the traffic and people around me again. The shock kept me holding on to my leg untill the ambulance arrived. It took two, big, grown men, quite a bit of effort to pry my hands away form my leg. I know that when things go bad, the human mind does what it thinks is best at the moment, wheather it is or not. I do believe that training helps, but still some will frezze when the SHTF. I do hope that I have stayed with the concept of this thread.
Y'all be safe now, ya hear!
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
December 28th, 2008 02:12 PM
Though I've never fired my weapon at another human, nor have I been fired upon, like most folks I've encountered high stress situations in life. A couple of years ago a school bus pulled out in front of me while I was doing 50 mph on a road at the edge of town. I hit the stoppers but saw I was going to t-bone the bus so pulled into the ditch and roared around the bus and back onto the road. Time slowed (Tachy Psyche Syndrome, I guess) as I steered into the ditch and vision focused on details such as the the deep rut in the ditch that I had to straddle to avoid damaging my vehicle, the road sign that I missed by an inch or less, literally, and a large culvert that I had to avoid by steering back onto the road now being occupied by the bus and not hit the bus.
All this happened within a matter of only seconds. I waved the bus driver to the side of the road and spoke to him and exchanged information so I could call his boss...that was when the shaking began, and there was no controlling it. It's not my first experience with the phenomenon, and it is indeed the body's natural reaction to the dump of chemicals, but for me only manifests itself once the immenent danger had passed.
My 125 lb dog in the back of the truck really enjoyed the ride, though!!
- It is no profit to have learned well, if you neglect to do well. (Publilius Syrus)
December 28th, 2008 04:18 PM
here's what we were trained on regarding this issue, info taken from tests and studies of officer-involved shootings over a period of years (I don't have sources to quote):
Heart Rate 115-145bpm = optimal Survival and combat performance level for: Complex motor skills, Visual reaction time, and Cognitive reaction time
Heart Rate Above 175bpm: Irrational fighting or fleeing, Freezing, Submissive behavior, Vasoconstriction (reduced bleeding from wounds), Voiding of bladder & bowels (yes, you can wet yourself…or worse….completely Involuntarily, this has happened to officers and they didn’t know it until after the shooting and the adrenaline has worn off/heart rate reduced), Gross motor skills (running, charging, etc.) at highest performance level
Heart Rate "Chart"
200 -Cognitive processing deteriorates
-Loss of peripheral vision
180 -Loss of depth perception (officers have said suspect was 15ft away when they were actually only 6ft away)
-Loss of near vision
160 -Auditory exclusion (officers have said they didn’t hear their own shots being fired)
145 -complex motor skill deteriorate
120 115bpm: fine motor skills deteriorate
60-80bpm = normal resting rate
Perceptual Distortions in Combat (from officer-involved shootings, what the officers experienced)
88% Diminished sound (auditory exclusion)
82% Tunnel vision
78% Automatic Pilot
63% Slow Motion Time
61% Memory Loss for parts of the event
60% Memory Loss for some of your actions
50% Disassociation (detachment)
36% Intrusive Distraction Thoughts
19% Memory Distortions
17% Intensified Sounds
17% Fast Motion Time
11% Temporary Paralysis
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