Another travel? Arkansas/Texas specific

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Thread: Another travel? Arkansas/Texas specific

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    Another travel? Arkansas/Texas specific

    This question is specifically about folks who are NOT concealed license holders, it is about the travel privilege or exemption, whatever you chose to call it.

    I know some folks who live in Arkansas, and others who live in Texas, who travel back and forth between both states. They are NOT CHL holders.

    What I am being told by them is that it is O.K. for them to do unlicensed car carry in both states because it is lawful to carry when you are traveling in both states. ( I know this travel rule is true in Texas, but don't know about Arkansas.)

    In any case, if it is true that there is a travel "privilege" in both states, is it lawful for the Texan to carry unlicensed in Arkansas, or for the Arkansan to carry while traveling in Texas?

    My gut says it isn't, that the travel privilege is for in-state residents, but I want to hear what others think before I say something to these folks. One of them would be risking a great deal if arrested--like an unarmed LE job and membership in The Bar.

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    My gut says it isn't, that the travel privilege is for in-state residents
    Your gut tells you correctly.

    Now that we got that out of the way, unless you commit a major infraction, I dont expect anyone will hassle you about it as long as it stays in the car.

    I've stopped lots of out of staters on I-40 that had guns, it's not something that I waste my time with, but thats ME. Some city cop somewhere might try to get stupid about it.

    It would remove all doubt if they had a permit for either state, since they are reciprocal.
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    Hotguns, thanks. These folks I know need to get their Texas or Arkansas licenses and then be fully legal when they go back and forth, instead of playing games.

    I'm always amazed by otherwise good people who seem to not realize that they could get themselves big trouble by not getting a license, especially since doing so isn't particularly difficult.

    One of them clearly has the background to know better, the other just figures it isn't a big deal.

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    The thing is, it aint a big deal, until its a big deal.

    One may be good to go for years, and then all of a sudden their world crashes down about them...
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    This question is specifically about folks who are NOT concealed license holders, it is about the travel privilege or exemption, whatever you chose to call it.

    I know some folks who live in Arkansas, and others who live in Texas, who travel back and forth between both states. They are NOT CHL holders.

    What I am being told by them is that it is O.K. for them to do unlicensed car carry in both states because it is lawful to carry when you are traveling in both states. ( I know this travel rule is true in Texas, but don't know about Arkansas.)

    In any case, if it is true that there is a travel "privilege" in both states, is it lawful for the Texan to carry unlicensed in Arkansas, or for the Arkansan to carry while traveling in Texas?

    My gut says it isn't, that the travel privilege is for in-state residents, but I want to hear what others think before I say something to these folks. One of them would be risking a great deal if arrested--like an unarmed LE job and membership in The Bar.

    ...and techically.....its no longer a "traveling" privilege, law that came in effect Sep 2007 removed this traveling restriction and makes it legal to have a handgun in your vehicle/vehicle under your control or en route to/from that vehicle, whether you're going from El Paso to Houston or from your house to the grocery store (that is...unless you are committing a crime other than traffic violation, convited felon, or street gang member)

    as HotGuns said, it ain't no big deal with him but there will be some LEO somewhere that would love to take someone to jail over this
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    Applicable to non-residents of Texas?

    Quote Originally Posted by 64zebra View Post
    ...and techically.....its no longer a "traveling" privilege, law that came in effect Sep 2007 removed this traveling restriction and makes it legal to have a handgun in your vehicle/vehicle under your control or en route to/from that vehicle, whether you're going from El Paso to Houston or from your house to the grocery store

    as HotGuns said, it ain't no big deal with him but there will be some LEO somewhere that would love to take someone to jail over this
    I don't know if the above mentioned new law is applicable to a non-Texan carrying in Texas.
    If it is, then the person from Arkansas is O.K. here, and I think O.K. while in Arkansas because they are traveling while in Arkansas.
    But, the resident of Texas isn't O.K. in Arkansas, as their law is a travel privilege--as best I understand it.

    Again, I don't understand why folks rely on these
    iffy things, when getting a license is relatively easy. And by iffy, I mean, here you are illegal the second you step out of the car unless going to and from your home/business. So, what good is possessing the weapon?

    Anyway, what I am trying to decide is what, if anything, to say to my friends who engage in this practice of unlicensed car carriage across state lines.

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    In Texas neither friend is doing anything wrong. As long as they are legally able to own a handgun, are not committing a crime other than a Class C misdemeanor and are not part of a Criminal Street Gang, they are good to go. There is no residency requirement mentioned in the statutes. They must be in a vehicle or a premise under their control and the firearm must be concealed.

    In Arkansas, it is a defense to prosecution that you were on a 'journey' as long as that journey was not in an airport at the security check point.

    So, technically, it seems like they could charge your friends in Arkansas, but they would have an affirmative defense. In Texas, outside of Harris County where the prosecutor has a vendetta, they are unlikely to be troubled.

    Either way, the license would be the prudent way to go. That way they can do the Wally Walk.

    I'll post references if you need them.

    The only think I could think of that could get them in trouble is if they did not have a bill of sale or receipt with them. If they could not prove they bought the handgun in their own state it is possible there could be federal consequences. It is also possible an officer could detain them for suspicion of trafficking in firearms. It's unlikely anything would come of it, but the officer would be well within his rights.
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    Here is Texas's http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/adminis...LStatute07.pdf
    Quote Originally Posted by HB 1815-Revision to 46.02
    H.B. 1815 Traveling & Unlicensed Carry • Allows the unlicensed carrying of a concealed handgun inside or directly en route to the person's motor vehicle.
    Amends Section 46.02, Penal Code to add Subsection (a-1) and (a-2):
    (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife or club if the person is not:
    (1) on the person’s own premises or premises under the person’s control; or
    (2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person’s control.
    (a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person’s control at any time in which:
    (1) the handgun is in plain view; or
    (2) the person is:
    (A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic:
    (B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or
    (C) a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01. (a-2)
    For purposes of this section, “premises” includes real property and a recreational vehicle that is being used as living quarters, regardless of whether that use is temporary or permanent. In this subsection, “recreational vehicle” means a motor vehicle primarily designed as temporary living quarters or a vehicle that contains temporary living quarters and is designed to be towed by a motor vehicle. The term includes a travel trailer, camping trailer, truck camper, motor home, and horse trailer with living quarters.
    And here is Arkansas's http://www.asp.arkansas.gov/division...df/chl_faq.pdf
    Quote Originally Posted by Arkansas Code 5-73-120
    Arkansas Code Annotated 5-73-120. Carrying a weapon.
    (a) A person commits the offense of carrying a weapon if he or she possesses a handgun, knife, or club on or about his or her person, in a vehicle occupied by him or her, or otherwise readily available for use with a purpose to employ the handgun, knife, or club as a weapon against a person.
    (b).....this section is just definitions
    (c) It is a defense to a prosecution under this section that at the time of the act of carrying a weapon:
    (1) The person is in his or her own dwelling, place of business, or on property in which he or she has a possessory or proprietary interest;
    (2) The person is a law enforcement officer, correctional officer, or member of the armed forces acting in the course and scope of his or her official duties;
    (3) The person is assisting a law enforcement officer, correctional officer, or member of the armed forces acting in the course and scope of his or her official duties pursuant to the direction or request of the law enforcement officer, correctional officer, or member of the armed forces;
    (4) The person is carrying a weapon when upon a journey, unless the journey is through a commercial airport when presenting at the security checkpoint in the airport or is in the person's checked baggage and is not a lawfully declared weapon;
    (a) journey is defined as traveling beyond your circle of neighbors and general acquaintances our outside a person’s normal travel routine)
    (5) The person is a licensed security guard acting in the course and scope of his or her duties;
    (6) The person is hunting game with a handgun that may be hunted with a handgun under rules and regulations of the Arkansas State Game and Fish Commission or is en route to or from a hunting area for the purpose of hunting game with a handgun;
    (7) The person is a certified law enforcement officer; or
    (8) The person is in a motor vehicle and the person has a license to carry a concealed weapon pursuant to 5-73-301 et seq.
    (d)(1) Any person who carries a weapon into an establishment that sells alcoholic beverages is guilty of a misdemeanor and subject to a fine of not more than two thousand five hundred dollars ($2,500) or imprisonment for not more than one (1) year, or both. (2) Otherwise, carrying a weapon is a Class A misdemeanor.
    Neither law has any bearing on legal residency, but like I said, in Arkansas it is only a defense to prosectution. In Texas it is not a violation at all.
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    Kerbouchard is correct. The "travel" thing doesn't matter anymore in Texas. The residency of the person doesn't matter. EVERY adult person , not involved in criminal activity and otherwise not breaking a law is entitled to have a concealed firearm in his vehicle as of Sept 1st 2007, NO concealed permit required. However, a couple of DA's really hate this new law and still like to jack with people in some cases. It is beyond me how the legislature can pass a law, the governor signs it and some county DA thinks he can override the law.

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    Anchor44 wrote: "It is beyond me how the legislature can pass a law, the governor signs it and some county DA thinks he can override the law."

    IF there are still problems in Harris county, one has to wonder if the law is as clear as we think it is. Maybe one more reason to be sure to have the license.

    To me (changing topic) the truly strange thing in Texas is that if you have a license and have a gun in the car you must show the license, but if you are engaged in unlicensed car carry, you don't have to speak up--my understanding. Strange stuff.

    Anyway, back on topic, what would you guys recommend I tell my friends---since likely they are legal, but also are open to some potential issues in Arkansas. I had thought I'd tell them what they are doing is "illegal" but that doesn't appear to be the case-- though Hotguns thought residency counted in Arkansas. So, maybe I'll just tell them it is wiser and safer to get their license.

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    It is wiser and safer to get their license.

    Tell them that in Arkansas it is an offense to carry a handgun without a license.

    Arkansas Code Annotated 5-73-120. Carrying a weapon.
    (a) A person commits the offense of carrying a weapon if he or she possesses a handgun, knife, or club on or about his or her person, in a vehicle occupied by him or her, or otherwise readily available for use with a purpose to employ the handgun, knife, or club as a weapon against a person.
    Tell them there is a defense to it(or not), but it will cost them time in court. You could also tell them that while it is legal to carry in both Texas and Arkansas, it could be construed as trafficking by crossing state lines without a license.

    You could also tell them about the nachos at Walmart.

    As far as Harris County, I haven't heard about them hassling people any more. I also wonder why if you don't have a license you do not have to disclose, but if you do, you do. Seems kind of backwards, huh?
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    It has been told to me by a Judge and the County Prosecuter that the "journey law" that is quoted in the Arkansas Statues applys only to Arkansas residents and NOT to out of state people. That is their opinion. Remember they are the ones that you will talk to if you get caught by the wrong guy.

    Not only that, it gets worse. The "journey law" is so vague that it almost be interpreted however you want it to be...which matters not to you, but the one bringing you up on charges. An example of this is the fact that even Judges or Prosecutors cant tell you how far you must be from your home to be considered a journey. Some have stated 25 miles, 40 miles, 50 miles and 75 miles.

    If a non resident carrys a gun in the vehicle based on the "Journey Law" then they are assuming an awful lot.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    It is wiser and safer to get their license.

    Tell them that in Arkansas it is an offense to carry a handgun without a license.
    Quote:
    Arkansas Code Annotated 5-73-120. Carrying a weapon.
    (a) A person commits the offense of carrying a weapon if he or she possesses a handgun, knife, or club on or about his or her person, in a vehicle occupied by him or her, or otherwise readily available for use with a purpose to employ the handgun, knife, or club as a weapon against a person.


    Tell them there is a defense to it(or not), but it will cost them time in court. You could also tell them that while it is legal to carry in both Texas and Arkansas, it could be construed as trafficking by crossing state lines without a license.

    You could also tell them about the nachos at Walmart.

    As far as Harris County, I haven't heard about them hassling people any more. I also wonder why if you don't have a license you do not have to disclose, but if you do, you do. Seems kind of backwards, huh?
    Here is where we get into the text of the law, and the intent of the law. The above quoted text is the law...no doubt...we might wish to define the law...not interpret the law. The law as stated as far as a 'weapon' is concerned requires intent. If a person is intent on committing a crime, then it is a weapon (offensive). If you have a pistol in your vehicle and you are carrying it for defensive purposes, then it wouldn't be considered a "weapon". What is needed to define the term would be intent. I don't think any of us who carry a pistol on a daily basis go out with intent to do anyone harm with it. While most of us carry with the full intent on not becoming a victim, it is with no malice.
    All in all, if you are out of state, traveling through this state, without a reciprocal CHL or CCW permit or whatever would otherwise legally entitle you to carry in or through this state, then I would not depend on this state's laws or intents of the law to cover you in any way. The journey law is for in state residents only. Nobody from out of state can use this fraction of law in any way. Only residents of Arkansas. If it's in the Arkansas state constitution, then it applies only to state residents. Nobody rides for free.

  16. #15
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    The "journey law" (or rider) as explained to me several times is whenever (being a resident of this state) one leaves his or her normal circle of friends, family, or community and traveling a distance of 20 miles or more. I've actually researched this extensively since I used to carry a 357 magnum revolver under the front seat of my truck whenever I left home on my way to work, since work always took me out of town and more than likely 30 miles at the least. I seem to remember one of our state's representatives or congressmen getting stopped for a traffic infraction and being found with a pistol when the journey law saved his hide from prosecution after the fact in Little Rock. I just don't have the resources to find the article, and can only guess as to the year it happened. But it did as I remember.

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