You are not the law, do not draw unless you are ready to pay with your life (savings)

This is a discussion on You are not the law, do not draw unless you are ready to pay with your life (savings) within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; What you advocate in your OP applies to every one individual differently and then again to each one of those individuals depending on the situation ...

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Thread: You are not the law, do not draw unless you are ready to pay with your life (savings)

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array gddyup's Avatar
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    What you advocate in your OP applies to every one individual differently and then again to each one of those individuals depending on the situation they find themselves in. Every one of us has our own reasons for carrying. Myself personally, I carry to protect my life and that of my family. However, I WOULD intervene under the correct circumstances because that is the type of person I am. It's my job, it's my life to help people.

    There's a simple thing I learned quite a long time ago. If I can't help someone else, then why should I expect someone else to help me. That goes for my family. I would hope that if my wife, children, any member of my family ever ended up in a situation where someone could come to their aid, I would hope someone would step up to help.

    To each his own I guess.
    Firefighter/EMT
    "You've never lived until you've almost died. For those who fight for it, life has a flavor the protected will never know" - T.R.

    <----My LT was unhappy that I did not have my PASS-Tag at that fire. But I found the body so he said he would overlook it. :)

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  3. #17
    Member Array Hubs's Avatar
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    Some state have a provision that allows one to render assistance if needed without fear of legal prosecution. However, this is to be used only when absolutely necessary. In other words, pick your battles wisely.
    Kimber UC II
    SA XD-45 SC
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    Mossberg .410g shottie

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    The search button is your friend. Laws vary. YMMV. Your beliefs vary. Your upbringing varies. These discussions always go around in circles and nothing is ever accomplished. It's gotten to be almost as bad as the .45 vs 9mm threads.

    In short, nothing about you is similar to me. The right decision for you is not necessarily the correct decision for me.

    It really comes down to a personal choice. It's yours to make and nothing any of us say is going to make a difference.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

    http://miscmusings.townhall.com/

    Who is John Galt?

  5. #19
    Member Array concealed's Avatar
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    In my opinion, the OP was justly giving friendly advice, which we are free to use or not. His thoughts are well worth considering in a litigous soceity. As previous post says, this discussion really goes no where, but the advice is there to use if we choose or not.

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array f8lranger4x4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKsrule View Post
    Most people here aren't Gunwaving Vigilantes , and IMHO most
    don't agree with your delicate viewpoint.

    There are many steps you can take to help a victim of violence
    without actually USING lethal force.

    If a perpetrator objects and attacks you - then you have
    the option of armed self defense.
    +10 to that

  7. #21
    Distinguished Member Array bandit383's Avatar
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    I agree...this subject does seem to go around and around a bit. But I also respect the OP's right to post his views unlike asking a question (i.e., searching).

    Rick

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    I didn't mean to imply that his thoughts were without merit...only to imply they had been expressed many times before and it always ends up in a heated argument with one person saying they wouldn't be able to look themselves in the mirror if they watched somebody die and another saying he wouldn't be able to look at himself in the mirror if he lost the house due to legal battles.

    There is no single, correct choice for every(or any two) circumstance(s). That's why this argument goes around in circles.

    There are certain clear circumstances in which I believe everybody would interfere. The woman who was throwing her kids off the bridge for instance.

    Most other situations are shades of gray and there just isn't any one right answer. It will vary by circumstance, the person, his training, his experience, his upbringing, state law, and maybe even what he had for breakfast or if he has a cold.

    ETA: For my answer, I would hope that I would be able to help. If I did not think I had a high probability of succeeding, I would be a good witness, and possibly hope I could get into a better position if things degenerated. That doesn't even necessarily mean I would draw. If the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

    When I was around 16, a friend and I detained a guy who was beating his ex in the parking lot. The sheriff got there about 2 minutes later and the guy was taken away. Neither of us were armed, but we grew up in the country in Texas, and that's not something we stand around and watch. I guess things are different now, but I doubt they are that much different.

    The only two types of people in this situation I feel bad for(and apprehensive about) are the ones that have already made up their mind that they would never help under any circumstances and the ones that have made up their mind that they would.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

    http://miscmusings.townhall.com/

    Who is John Galt?

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matiki View Post
    I disagree with the assumption that drawing your weapon will cost you your life no matter what. There are appropriate circumstances for the threat, or the actual use of deadly force. It's up to you to learn what those circumstances are and determine whether or when you are going to be prepared to do so.
    In Texas, if the force you used was justified you can not be sued in civil court..

    Jonathan

  10. #24
    Distinguished Member Array SubNine's Avatar
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    I posted on Glock Talk saying that my carry gun is for my own personal protection, and the protection of loved ones, nothing else. Everyone else is responsible for their own safety and well being, and if they choose not to carry a gun like I do, that is their choice to make. I made mine, and I am sticking to it. A couple members called me selfish saying they hope to never have me around when their loved ones are under attack. Well unless I know who you are, I will leave it to the police to deal with it, because you made the decision not to protect yourself with the most effective tools available.

    Life isn't always fair, and criminals will be criminals. I am not out to play hero, but unless I know 100% about what is going on in a situation, I will not draw my gun.... period. I do not want to end up on the wrong side of the law because I decided to draw when I shouldn't have.
    USMC rule # 23 of gunfighting: Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

    I am the God fearing, gun toting, flag waving conservative you were warned about!

  11. #25
    Senior Member Array threefeathers's Avatar
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    Solid Gun. You are wrong in this and I would also like to hear your legal credentials. Personally I work with the Cochise County attorney and I graduated from LFI farily recently and share my information with all of Ayoob's students.
    Caution in an encounter is of course common sense. You should make a determination as to what is going on. But in Arizona at least you do have an obligation to save the life of an innocent. Personally I would never allow a thug to get away with something that would hurt anyone I can protect.
    Of course courage is easy to find on the internet, but I doubt you could stand by and watch someone die or be hurt and not step in.

  12. #26
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    Array Landor's Avatar
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    I wrote this a while ago. It pretty much looks at both sides of the equation.

    RTKBA.com - WECSK

  13. #27
    Member Array user's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rottkeeper View Post
    I only ask you to share with us you legal credentials to practice law as you are giving a legal opinion?
    Quote Originally Posted by darkstar1357 View Post
    I just read the top post again, but no one is giving a legal opinion on these posts. Maybe you should read clearly before taking a defensive position.
    How about this, DarkStar, maybe this will help RottKeeper: I'm admitted to practice before the U.S. Supreme Court, the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals, the U.S. District Courts for the Eastern District of Virginia, the Supreme Court of the Commonwealth of Virginia, and all inferior Virginia courts. I've been doing litigation for about twenty years, now, and I'm an NRA firearms instructor; I give the "lawyer required" part of the home safety course for other instructors.

    I agree with what the OP said. While one may lawfully act in defense of others, one is not thereby authorized to "fight crime", nor is he immune from prosecution and civil suit for being wrong. Even if you live through the encounter, you'd better be right, 'cause if you're not, you're likely going to jail for manslaughter at the least.

    If you are certain you know what's going on and you're really clear on who the innocents and assailants are, then you would have a good defense if charged with a crime involving your having shot someone. I'd rather not be in court, though, than have a good defense, and if you're not crystal clear about the necessity of what you're doing, you'd best keep out of it.

    But this is only a legal opinion in Virginia; I'm not an attorney where you live.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    Nothing I say as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice. Legal questions should be presented to a competent attorney licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Here's one for you, next time you decide to turn on your blinker, you better be right, because if there is a motorcycle rider next to you, you could lose everything you own.

    Life involves risks. It's up to you to determine which of those risks are worth taking.

    Anyway, told you it would only go around in circles...you guys have fun. I've taken this ride before.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

    http://miscmusings.townhall.com/

    Who is John Galt?

  15. #29
    Member Array bigiceman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    In Texas, if the force you used was justified you can not be sued in civil court..

    Jonathan
    There is an important distinction between can not be sued and can be used as a defense against prosecution. Texas law, and Texas castle doctrine, gives you the right to use justified circumstances as defense against prosecution. This is not the same as immunity to prosecution. There is a difference. You can still end up in court.

    No one ever needed an attorney to do the right thing. Unfortunately sometimes in our society you need one after doing the right thing. That doesn't make it any less right. Do you want to do the right thing, or the convenient thing?
    But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...
    "Baa."
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    Revolutionary War Veterans Association Shooter Qualification: Cook

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiliverde View Post
    Rule number one in any situation that you are involved in as a legally armed citizen is to be the best witness that you can be! Period plain and simple.

    I was a police officer in Southern California for 5 years, I would NEVER have gotten involved in an off duty incident, unless ABSOLUTELY necessary. My first tool is my cell phone.

    I now work in Vermont for a federal agency. I drive an unmarked SUV, I have a raid jacket, body armor that is clearly marked POLICE with my agencies initials, and I have several long guns inside at my disposal. Even with all of these tools at my disposal I would probably not get into any altercations while in plain clothes.

    Friendly fire does happen, as a uniformed cop you know who the other good guys are, they're wearing the same uniform. A legally armed citizen, a plain clothes cop, or even an off duty cop is just another guy with a gun.

    You and only you are responsible for your safety. Being legally armed is your right, but with rights come responsibilities. I agree wholeheartedly with what solidgun posted. The ramifications of even drawing your firearm are severe. You could be charged with a felony. Before I hear the, well I got my CCW and I'm gonna protect the world rant. Realize that a felon can't vote, or hold a CCW. That is not something that I am willing to risk, unless it is ABSOLUTELY necessary.
    I agree almost totally..... the ONLY exception... is if I KNOW for a FACT.... that 1) someone had shot an LEO who was down and BG was ready to finish him off , 2) they were undoubtedly a BG in the act of trying to or actually shooting an innocent. ( I would stress that I know this for a FACT).

    I stress that, because it could be someone shooting someone because they had just tried to kill them. How would I know ??? walking into that situation. I think many people don't think about that.

    I hear the "looked like a gang banger" so .... so, they just assumed they were the BG. How do you know they are not an under cover police officer, DEA agent, etc. ? I know some, you wouldn't believe they weren't a 100% gang banger if you saw them.

    I would add.... not pulling your gun because someone makes you jittery... or uncomfortable, or you think they may be..... I don't pull anything unless I know my life is in danger. I have never pulled a gun, that my next action wasn't shooting it (I may have my hand on it, but it isn't out until the point I'm sure I need it).

    You don't pull out a hammer & think about whether to put in the nail. You pull out the hammer when you're ready to drive in the nail.

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