You are not the law, do not draw unless you are ready to pay with your life (savings)

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Thread: You are not the law, do not draw unless you are ready to pay with your life (savings)

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

    martyr is a fancy name for crappy fighter
    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

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  3. #32
    Member Array M203Sniper's Avatar
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    Understand that you are carrying to protect yourself and your family. It is your choice to help others.

    That was all you needed to say. Thx.
    "Words can be as lethal as bullets; Choose them carefully, Aim them well & Use them sparingly."

  4. #33
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    The only thing I ask myself is, "Why should I assume responsibility for something, for someone that I don't know, that they weren't willing to assume responsibility for?"

    In short, off duty, my guns are to protect me and mine.

    As far as my family, and someone stepping in to "save them". No thank you. While we may one day need your assistance, we will not ask for it, nor expect it. We would not ask anyone here to shoulder a burden that we would not be willing to shoulder ourselves. I would not fault anybody for not getting involved beyond being a good witness.

    HAPPY NEW YEAR!

    Biker

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX-JB View Post
    It depends where you live. Many states have Good Samaritan Laws. etc... to limit civil liability. I understand your point, especially living in CA.
    Yup. There are certainly states that do NOT value integrity of action and doing what's right, when helping our fellow citizens. Thwarting crime is right; self-defense against crime is right. Some states seek the most extremely dishonorable path possible, to wield every legal instrument to eviscerate the upstanding, leaving them "walking dead" as the OP suggests. Often if they dare defend themselves ... even more so, if they defend another.

    Shouldn't be that way, absolutely. Until it changes, until life and honorable action is valued, many people won't take the honorable steps we all know to be what's right. It's a problem of our own making, that we allow such dishonorable laws to be executed against the innocent.

    I'm all for changing it. Until then, I am also in the me/mine camp, except for those clear-cut situations that explode in front of me where it's obvious innocents are going down without assistance.

    * Thirty-four posts. Nice to see folks avoiding grandstanding claims of "cowardice" toward those who recognize the barbaric legal meat grinder some places put in place to "kill" those left standing. We're improving. Kudos to all. Let's all continue to work to reject the terrible laws that allow such things to occur.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  6. #35
    Member Array Double Naught Spy's Avatar
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    It is your choice to help others, but unless you know the situation thoroughly, then there may not be any issues, but otherwise, be prepared to pay for all legal issues you may face.
    Yes, we are legally responsible for our actions, but as noted, our actions are often covered legally and civilly by law, even for a mistake. Given all the times guns are used daily in the prevention of crime, I am not aware of any suits or criminal charges resulting in huge costs based on well intentioned intervention of simply drawing or drawing and pointing a gun. I seem to recall a couple involved the drawing and pointing of a gun, but also coupled with (1)B&E (2) beating a person (pistol whipped) when the well intentioned hero was wrong. In both cases, apparently, the assumptions made about the situations that caused the wannabe hero to act were considered unrealistic and not what a normal person would do in that circumstance. In other words, you can't be a complete idiot and expect to get off, but otherwise, such well intentioned actions seem to have significant negative financial (civil suit) or criminal results only an extremely extremely small percentage of the time. Here, I don't consider misdemeanor charges and time-served decisions to be on par with the OP.

    Of course, maybe somebody could post court decisions where a well-intentioned samaritan drew their gun and suffered significantly for the act.
    Considering yourself to be defenseless is the first administrative step to becoming a victim.

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Some of you have pointed out that they would hope someone would step in if their family was in danger.

    If I knew your family, then yes, I may step in. If you 16y/o son is a saint at home, but on the streets is a different person, then there is question.

    How many times has a person been killed or severely injured during the commission of a crime and the family announces to the media, "Johnny was such a good boy. He's never been arrested, he does good in school. That man who shot him had no right to do this to him. He would never do what that bad man said he did."

    While working Grocery Retail graveyard shifts, I caught on average about 3 teenagers per week for shoplifting and vandalism, most of whom came from upper class families (store was located in a high end suburb). Parents bought them $40k cars, and anything else they wanted. Bored kids out at 1 am steeling beer, and whatever else took their fancy. 5 teenagers buying a 1/2 case of toilet paper and 4dz eggs are not baking a cake with Ex-Lax.

    The Parents were always stunned when they had to come pick them up at the store and talk to the LEO.

    I guess what I am getting at is nothing is ever as it seems from a bystander point of view.

    Not my problem until it becomes my problem.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  8. #37
    Ron
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    The really important point on all of these similar threads is the following: Be certain that you understand what the law is in your jurisdiction so that you are fully aware of the potential legal consequences of deciding to use deadly force to assist someone who you believe needs assistance.

    Once that is done, then, IMO, there is no right or wrong to these questions. Some will intervene for whatever reasons they may have, and others will not.

    We need to remember that each of us is in a different personal situation. Some are young, strong and daring , some older and more cautious(me), some with families who rely on them for support(financial and moral), some are single with obligations to no one but themselves, some have a strong, compelling sense of obigation to help others regardless of risk, others less so.

    But, whatever we may do, please be certain that you fully understand the legal risk involved.
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

  9. #38
    Member Array Blue's Avatar
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    Be sure of what you do.

    Remember:

    CCW does not a LEO make.
    I'm clinging to my guns and religion.

  10. #39
    VIP Member Array NCHornet's Avatar
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    I couldn't find the little dude beating a dead horse so I will have to use these!!











    Get the picture??
    When Seconds Count, The Cops Are Just Minutes Away!!
    Carry On!
    NCHornet

  11. #40
    Member Array riseforms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nosights View Post
    I see your point yet politely dissagree. First off I must say, I will NEVER draw my gun unless I know there is a very real danger to somone.

    I would hope that if one of you saw MY wife, grandmother, brother, child or the like in obvious danger that you would take action. I will do the same for your loved one. ALL lives are precious in His sight and who am I to say that mine holds a higher value. If I must spend the rest of my life in prison due to my saving somone elses...then so be it. It will have been the biggest bargin of all time! If I must die defending your loved one...well my reward will be in heaven.
    Amen! Couldn't have said it better myself.

  12. #41
    Senior Member Array nosights's Avatar
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    Well, I see how this goes in circles...but I am on this site because I enjoy stretching my mind and thinking. Life is not clear cut, "live by the golden rule and remember Who you live for", this is how I try and make my desisions.

    Thanks for the both sides of the debate... I am enjoying this
    Pray for our nations leaders!

  13. #42
    Member Array riseforms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    I hear the "looked like a gang banger" so .... so, they just assumed they were the BG. How do you know they are not an under cover police officer, DEA agent, etc. ? I know some, you wouldn't believe they weren't a 100% gang banger if you saw them.
    That is actually a really good point also. I was on a fire call in my small town in NH a few years back. There was call with someone wanted on drug charges being in town. Ended up becoming a SWAT negotiation/entry situation and we were on stand by.

    As we were sitting in the staging area, we could see the house and see where the law enforcement agencies were setting up. An unmarked car came flying in, no lights or anything and this guy gets out.. Looked like a scary dude.. Big guy, kind of ratty clothes and I seem to remember long hair and a big 'ole linebacker in the post-season facial hair look. I was thinking "who the hell is he and why aren't they stopping him?!?!".. Walked to his trunk, popped it and started throwing on his gear. I don't remember if it said police or DEA but I am pretty sure he was with the DEA.

    Thinking of his look with this post give me more pause. If I saw him with a gun drawn pointed at some teenager, I would think this guy is trying to mug that clean cut kid. Me getting in the way would either end up with the potential for one of us to be shot, the suspect he was attempting to arrest pulling a weapon in the confusion or getting away.

    So yeah, every situation is different and it's tough to say what to do exactly. If I truly felt someone's life was in danger I would be calling 911 and getting myself ready to attempt to intervene should things escalate or should a BG situation become obvious.

  14. #43
    Senior Member Array FlyboyLDB's Avatar
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    I think in our litigious society that any infraction one invokes on another, whether legally justified or not, will most likely result in civil action. Even if the plaintiff(s) do not prevail, certainly the financial toll to defend such a case can be tremendous. And of course one is always at risk of criminal prosecution rising from the course of defending self or others.

    This is the reason I have made a self rule – If I or my family or very close friends are not in danger AND I can safely escape, I am out of there. Everyone has the responsibility to defend themselves. I will not put myself, nor my family’s financial and physical welfare at risk by defending someone else that did not have the fore thought to be prepared.

  15. #44
    Distinguished Member Array morintp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCHornet View Post
    I couldn't find the little dude beating a dead horse so I will have to use these!!
    Do you mean this one?

    Last edited by Captain Crunch; January 1st, 2009 at 01:03 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tags.
    64,999,987 firearms owners killed no one yesterday.

  16. #45
    M2
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    It is dependant on the state laws where you live, but Texas gives us the right to intervene on behalf of others during specific criminal acts. It also protects us from civil lawsuits if the intervention was legal (i.e. a "no bill" from a Grand Jury).

    No, I do not consider myself a law enforcement officer; but I am a legally-armed citizen and one who will not stand around and let others be victims of crimes when I can do something about it. It might be the 25 years of military service I have, or the Texas attitude that we should help others when we can; but I don't see how anyone could live with a clear conscience if they had the ability to stop a crime against a person and not do anything about it. I am not talking about playing Bruce Willis or Chuck Norris; but if the opportunity to help arises, you should at least consider doing so.

    Cheers! M2

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