You're good in a restaurant, just no bars.
This is a discussion on Carrying in a restaurant: MI Specific within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Ok, I am getting confused... I have been told I cannot carry in a restaurant such as Apple-Bees, Max & Erma's, Chili's, Friday's etc... because ...
Ok, I am getting confused... I have been told I cannot carry in a restaurant such as Apple-Bees, Max & Erma's, Chili's, Friday's etc... because they serve beer by the glass. These people seem to think they know the CPl laws in Michigan. I disagree.
I have read and re-read the Michigan firearm section 28.425o over and over again.
It states "(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.
Now, these places are not considered a bar or tavern, their primary income is not derived from the sale of alcohol alone.
What is the consensus here on these locations to carry?
Thanks in advance...
I have been trying to beat this into their heads for five months. We go to the local Chili's and they get paranoid that I have my firearm on me. The debate continued until I got tired of it and don't ask them out to dinner anymore.
Without analyzing the legalese of MI, in FL, we can carry in a restaurant that serves liquor so long as we are not seated at or hanging in the bar area. Usually the bar will be sectioned off, whether by wall or some other line of divide. Passing through the bar, say to use a restroom, is a gray area. Just dont hang out.
Don't think I would ask them out either !!
The Laws are the Laws...
Reality is, you cannot possibly know where 51% of revenue comes from at a restaurant, unless they post it.
But, I'd be willing to bet that nearly everyone, if asked, would think of Appleby's, Chili's and Friday's as food restaurants with drinks on the side, and not liquor pubs with munchies on the side. I think that's your answer. If truly concerned, speak with a competent attorney in the area of criminal defense of self-defense cases.
Michigan follows the 51% rule. If the place makes 51% of their income on alcohol consumed on premises then you cannot carry there.
OD G19 || G26 || OD KT P3AT
I just stay out of the bar itself, when I am in those places. It has never been a problem, but then again, concealed means concealed. The "alcohol by the glass" thing is true in Ohio (I think), but not in Michigan.
I was told that if it doesn't look like it is ment to be a bar, or if they have a full menu then you are normally good.
Texas establishments that get more than 50% of their revenue from alcohol are required to post a sign (a "51%" sign) prominently at the entrance so that we can tell that it is such a place. TX CHL laws prohibit CCW in 51% establishments. At least we can tell where they are.
No expert here, so corrections are highly encouraged.
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You are right, your friends must not have been paying close attention during their CPL class. Still, you'd think that if they went to all the trouble and expense to get a license in the first place, that they would want to carry wherever possible. We have the 51% law, as you and others have stated. Since it is rarely posted as to what % sales are alcohol and what % is food, I go by the number of bar stools compared to the number dining table chairs. A reasonable person can tell at a glance what the primary business is in most cases. And more importantly, I carry CONCEALED, and don't drink any alcohol while armed.
If you happen to see me in any of the Michigan Apple-Bees, Max & Erma's, Chili's, Friday's etc...I garrantee that I will be strapped, well heeled, etc....
By comparison, TN prohibits those who are in possession of a handgun from carrying into restaurants that serve alcohol or consuming alcohol subject to face a Class A misdemeanor, which carries a $2,000 fine and up to 11 months and 29 days in jail. You have to be careful about crossing some thresholds. We are optimistic for 2009 legislation to overturn this onerous and unreasonable restriction.
You have to be careful about calculating 50%. IMO, the GA Restaurant Association so opposed legislation GA HB 89 (ammendments are underlined) (that passed) to overturn GA's restaurant gun ban because they didn't want association members to have to disclose the high percentage of income from alcohol that would have invoked other legal triggers. The point being that an ounce alcohol costs a lot more than one of food.
Last edited by Pistology; January 11th, 2009 at 07:21 PM.
-Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
I haven't stepped foot into a "bar" in a long time. On the same token, I was at Chili's last night and armed. I take my privilege to carry seriously and drink iced tea or Pepsi. We sit on the outer perimeter and facing the door, when possible. I don't know how to go about finding out from the state if these establishments are included in the "gun free zone" or just take my chances. On any given night, these places could have their revenues from the bar, exceed the food.
I've never seen any 51% signs or even any other firearm prohibited signs in my ventures through the Metro Detroit area.
OD G19 || G26 || OD KT P3AT