Church carry and security

Church carry and security

This is a discussion on Church carry and security within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Last April, I founded and now Chair my Churches Security Team. I wrote a handbook for all members of the congregation that was what I ...

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Thread: Church carry and security

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Sarge43's Avatar
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    Church carry and security

    Last April, I founded and now Chair my Churches Security Team. I wrote a handbook for all members of the congregation that was what I call "specifically ambiguous" but covered the basics of what we as a team were doing, and what those in the congregation should do in various scenarios. The Church had it reviewed by two secular lawyers and the then the insurance company had their legal dept review it and approve it. They even cut the Churches insurance rates because of what we're doing. The team conducts regular training in many facets of action ranging from someone standing up in Church and causing a simple distrubance to an all out armed confrontation. Anyway, to the point - there is much interest in Church security, both armed and unarmed as evidenced by the fact that I have been asked to speak at a regional gathering of Pastors tomorrow on the subject. I will let you know how it goes, but it seems the attitude is both positive and realistic about such things.
    Does anyone else have such a team in place in their place or worship?
    Sarge43
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    Member Array carver's Avatar
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    Sounds like a great idea to me! I live in East TX, and TX law says that we CCW holders, can not carry in Church! I'm not sure if there is any way around this. Will have to do a little research. Maybe if the Pastor, and congreation agreed to this it might help, but still doubtfull. The law is the same for both Schools and Churches, so I doubt that there would be any way it could be done legally.
    Y'all be safe now, ya hear!

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  3. #3
    Senior Member Array Sarge43's Avatar
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    Carver,
    Of the 8 men on the "core" team, 5 of us carry daily. The vast majority of our training is in unarmed response techniques and is geared toward the disruptive person in the service, what to do in a medical emergency, what to do in a weather emergency etc. Our goal is to be a presence that keeps any situation from becoming a SITUATION by our mere and known presence. This has been the case in a couple of instances so far. You don't have to be armed to be an effective security force. I could go on for pages on the subject, but won't. You should talk to your Pastor or Deacon board (whatever is applicable) about having an organized security and safety team to deal with the above listed examples and you may be surprised at the response. Many Churches I've talked with have a strong underlying support for such a thing - especially when you consider the team having published plans and logistical supplies in place for the weather and medical emergency parts. The odds are barely over nill that you will ever have an armed conflict in your Church, but it DOES happen. The medical and weather emergencies are much more a viable threat in most locations. The instance we come into most is the estranged husband after the wife or the children. Think about it, Church is the one place that you know where they will be, when they'll be there, and the odds that you can get in and get out without being confronted are perceived to be good. Ripe target. People appreciate knowing that they can come and worship without having to worry in general about such things happening, or if they do, knowing there are people and policies in place to deal with them efficiently and quickly.
    Sorry for the disjointed book, this subject is near and dear...
    Sarge
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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carver View Post
    Sounds like a great idea to me! I live in East TX, and TX law says that we CCW holders, can not carry in Church! I'm not sure if there is any way around this. Will have to do a little research. Maybe if the Pastor, and congreation agreed to this it might help, but still doubtfull. The law is the same for both Schools and Churches, so I doubt that there would be any way it could be done legally.
    You need to check Tx law ,you can carry in church unless it's posted with a legal 30.06 sign
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

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    Good program if allowed by state laws. Unfortunately many states do not allow for carry in churches. It can be done for when a non-armed situation exists, but what happens when the situation changes unexpectedly?

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    Wouldn't it be OK also if you had permission from the church?
    "Just blame Sixto"

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    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    Sarge, sent you a PM. Would appreciate your input. In SC Church carry is illegal unless you have permission of the ruling person/body of the Church
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

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    Member Array HavOkSIS's Avatar
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    I don't know about NC... legal or not, i've been carrying this whole time back. I might need to check on this.
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    VIP Member Array Paco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    You need to check Tx law ,you can carry in church unless it's posted with a legal 30.06 sign
    Yeah, it is real strange. It says you can't but then later on it says that the section covering churches is exempt (or some legalese mumbo jumbo).
    "Don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep." - Theodore Roosevelt

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    Senior Member Array Sarge43's Avatar
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    Responded to the PM's.
    Situations are always fluid and change on the second hand. It's better to have trained people watching and ready for potential situations than just to sit and hope one doesn't come along. There have been more than a couple of times that just our presence in the door or parking lot has changed the mind of a few people in the area acting suspiciously in the area and they left. Like I said, the best situation is one that never develops.
    Our security and safety team isn't just for resolution to possibly violent situations, we also monitor weather emergencies (I'm in Kansas City, tornadoes are a big concern here), and have been trained in basic first aid for medical situations which may arise, and there have been a few of those as well. We also monitor and keep the fire alarms/sprinklers/extinguishers current and up to date on inspecitons. Also, we ensure that our Church safe room (where we would go in the event of a tornado or such) is stocked with things that would be needed in the event of our having to use it. It's a little broader spectrum than simply watching out for bad guys. It gives our members a sense of peace to a certain degree to know that people and plans are in place to handle a wide variety of situations that can come up and frees them up to enjoy the service and their worship.
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    Member Array cred's Avatar
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    You CAN carry in Church in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by carver View Post
    I live in East TX, and TX law says that we CCW holders, can not carry in Church! ... The law is the same for both Schools and Churches, so I doubt that there would be any way it could be done legally.
    The Texas law on
    PC Section 46.035 -UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER
    (b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H. Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:
    (6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.
    (i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

    So unless there is a 30.06 sign - you CAN carry to church in Texas.
    At least - that's the way I read it.

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    Member Array houndawg75's Avatar
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    Sarge, I applaud you and your congregation on your efforts. Most folks don't realize what an easy target churches really are. Most folks arrive at a specified times and leave at at specified time. so there is really very little traffic in the parking lots during services making them a virtual buffet for thieves and vandals. as a side note you may check out frontsight for more training for your security force. I got something from them about a month ago about some pretty good deals specifically for churches that were putting together security teams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Wouldn't it be OK also if you had permission from the church?
    this is of those wonderful "gray" areas; TX PC only says its a defense to prosecution if you have permission of the hospital/nursing home if its posted with 30.06 sign, no provision for a church giving permission
    HOWEVER, if you are able to show/prove that you are working as security under the direction/supervision of the church then its a whole other story....typical huh Sixto?

    as for the other posts, yes you can carry in places of worship unless they are propertly posted under 30.06, hospitals/nursing homes, amusement parks, and places of worship all are off limits ONLY if posted, some of that fine print in the bottom of that section of the penal code
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    Yes, it is a very strange construct

    Quote Originally Posted by Paco View Post
    Yeah, it is real strange. It says you can't but then later on it says that the section covering churches is exempt (or some legalese mumbo jumbo).
    Yes, whether or not you can carry "in church" in Texas is governed by laws with a very strange construct.

    First they say NO. And then they say Yes, but only if there is no 30.06 sign.

    Police and prosecutor and jury all get to choose which part they focus on, I suppose.

    But, it does appear to be legal provided it is not posted with a 30.06 sign. Since the other section of the law is still in place I would play safe and cc only with authority of whoever has legal control over the property where the congregation is meeting. It is private property and those are the folks who get to make the decision.

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    Senior Member Array Sarge43's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by houndawg75 View Post
    Sarge, I applaud you and your congregation on your efforts. Most folks don't realize what an easy target churches really are. Most folks arrive at a specified times and leave at at specified time. so there is really very little traffic in the parking lots during services making them a virtual buffet for thieves and vandals. as a side note you may check out frontsight for more training for your security force. I got something from them about a month ago about some pretty good deals specifically for churches that were putting together security teams.
    hounddawg75 - That's great information. Thank you!
    Sarge
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