Why Training

Why Training

This is a discussion on Why Training within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; So, another child loses her life because someone non-thinking, perhaps untrained, irresponsible firearm owner did not properly handle their weapon. http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...lfunction.html Then we have the ...

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Thread: Why Training

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array bandit383's Avatar
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    Why Training

    So, another child loses her life because someone non-thinking, perhaps untrained, irresponsible firearm owner did not properly handle their weapon.

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...lfunction.html

    Then we have the discussion about needing training to get a CPL, CCW, CWL etc...

    Why I think training should be mandatory...the 2A hardcores can scream all they want...but I'm very saddened and very frustrated over loss of such young lives due to ineptness. We are sometimes are worst enemy.

    Rick


  2. #2
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    If there was mandatory training and this guy only took it to pass a class to get his CPL, it does nothing for him. He could have taken a week long class and at the end of it, if he doesn't care, he will forget it and never use it.

    I can't see that mandatory training would help much unless someone wants it. And, if they really want it, they will seek out training whether it is mandatory or not.

    I agree that training is necessary, but I just don't think making it mandatory would be much help for a certain type of folk.
    eschew obfuscation

    The only thing that stops bad guys with guns is good guys with guns. SgtD

  3. #3
    Senior Member Array youngda9's Avatar
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    FACT:In 2005 (the most recent year for which data is available), there were 30,694 gun deaths in the U.S:

    12,352 homicides (40% of all U.S gun deaths),
    17,002 suicides (55% of all U.S gun deaths),
    789 unintentional shootings, 330 from legal intervention and 221 from undetermined intent (5% of all U.S gun deaths combined). -Numbers obtained from CDC National Center for Health Statistics mortality report online, 2008.


    Accidents happen with cars all the time >40K people killed every year in the US alone, I'd suspect >99.2% are accidents. Should we be required to have more manditory training and qualification to drive? This isn't a "right", but is much more serious of a problem wouldn't you say?

    What other "rights" should we have to qualify and be licensed to exercise?

    Just playing devil's advocate...need some coffee.
    Speak softly, and carry a big stick.

  4. #4
    jfl
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    It is mandatory to have a driver license to drive on public roads and you train to get one.
    How many people are killed in traffic accidents every year ?
    50,000 ? I don't really remember.

    The only thing that should be mandatory is to "engage brain" when performing certain activities. However there is no switch.
    Last edited by jfl; January 19th, 2009 at 12:19 PM. Reason: Youngda9 was faster than me, we are saying basically the same thing
    The first rule of a gunfight: "Don't be there !"
    The second rule: "Bring enough gun"

    jfl
    (NRA Life Member/Instructor - GOA - IDPA - GSSF - ex-IHMSA)

  5. #5
    Distinguished Member Array bandit383's Avatar
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    I always hate the vehicle to gun comparisons...such disapportionate and really lacks any connectivity. Keep hanging your hat on this though...although no one at the law making level will buy it.

    Would training had helped this guy...no telling. Would a ND had happened even if he had the training...no telling. Would accidents such as these be reduced if there was training...I truly believe so.

    But if you want to use vehicles as a sounding board...then expect all gun owners to pay huge insurance premiums to own a gun! Food for thought.

    Rick

  6. #6
    Senior Member Array youngda9's Avatar
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    It's a good way to put "accidents" into perspective.

    You never answered my question..."What other "rights" should we have to qualify and be licensed to exercise?"

    Did you pass the free speech qualifying exam, pay your fee, wait 30 days, and obtain your license in order to post on the internet?

    Have you been advocating further restrictions, qualifications, and training for other things that kill the children far more often than firearms? Just curious.

    Accidents happen with knives, guns, cars, prescription medicine, household chemicals, etc etc etc. Stupidity is everywhere. You can't train it away.
    Speak softly, and carry a big stick.

  7. #7
    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandit383 View Post
    non-thinking, perhaps untrained, irresponsible firearm owner...due to ineptness.
    Rick
    Unfortunately, I know of no way to fix ineptness. Responsibility is something that comes down to the individual. It can be taught and it can be learned, but not in some 4 hour weekend basics class.

    That is a sad story, but the right to self defense does not depend on some preset requirements.

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array Paco's Avatar
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    Training is good, forcing it on a right is bad. I also see the need to compare other types of accidents to gun related accidents, but I don't hold them in as high a comparison sometimes, for example I don't think driving is a right so comparing required training for that isn't as big a deal for me as requiring me to own a firearm.

    I do think that in some instances firearm training should be mandatory, in the case of it is used for your job (LEO, etc.) I think it would be foolish to send a first responder out without proper training, for them and for the organization that sent them.

    One statistic I would love to see is the firearms accidents from last year as compared to 1908 or 1798, etc. I have a feeling there are more now as we have become a society less used to firearms, among other technological advancements like lighter triggers, etc.
    "Don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep." - Theodore Roosevelt

    -Paco
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  9. #9
    Distinguished Member Array bandit383's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by youngda9 View Post
    It's a good way to put "accidents" into perspective.

    You never answered my question..."What other "rights" should we have to qualify and be licensed to exercise?"

    Did you pass the free speech qualifying exam, pay your fee, wait 30 days, and obtain your license in order to post on the internet?

    Have you been advocating further restrictions, qualifications, and training for other things that kill the children far more often than firearms? Just curious.

    Accidents happen with knives, guns, cars, prescription medicine, household chemicals, etc etc etc. Stupidity is everywhere. You can't train it away.
    No...horrible way to put "accidents" in perspective. Was this an accident though...or negligence? You answer that question my friend.

    Curious...or want to pick a fight???

    As for training away...yes, I believe one can educate and actually train away stupidity...not all...but a fair amount. What is your background in human factors??

    As for the rest of your post...a car accident won't get me more restrictions (except my car insurance)...but a firearm "accident" (your word)...will. But keep waiving the 'bill of rights' flag...you will be out voted if one continues to see such "accidents".

    Rick

  10. #10
    Senior Member Array youngda9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bandit383 View Post
    No...horrible way to put "accidents" in perspective. Was this an accident though...or negligence? You answer that question my friend.

    Curious...or want to pick a fight???

    As for training away...yes, I believe one can educate and actually train away stupidity...not all...but a fair amount.

    But keep waiving the 'bill of rights' flag...you will be out voted if one continues to see such "accidents".

    Rick
    I was trying to put the numbers into perspective. Yes, it's an awful tragic accident(or neglect however you want to say it)...but accidents and neglegence gets people killed for so many reasons every day. We shouldn't attempt to take away or restrict our god given rights because of the neglegence of a few. The numbers were posted to show that 50+ times as many people die yearly from car neglegence/accidents, yet people clamp down on guns so much. It's easy to pick on gun owners...Everybody drives...not everybody is concerned about their 2A rights.

    Don't want a fight, I just want to make sure my rights "shall not be infringed"

    I don't believe we should need training or a license to exercise any of our other rights.

    I think a little more waiving of our "bill of rights" could do some good. I won't pack my flag away to not recognize it in 40 years.
    Speak softly, and carry a big stick.

  11. #11
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    I think guns compare better to something like scuba diving better than driving. In scuba, if you do something wrong, you or someone with you, is likely to die. Period. Sky diving as well. No room for errors. You need to have extensive training in either pursuit to participate in either of these activities and there are standards for certification that everyone accepts. Hmm.

    Carrying a gun is such a powerful right to most of us on forums like this that I think we (me too) find it hard to consider anything that may impinge on that right.

    We need to realize that there are tons of more casual owners that were not brought up in families where gun safety started early, and ownership was a given. They are the people who will make it hard for the rest of us.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Array youngda9's Avatar
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    Driving and Scuba aren't rights...that is true.

    Does anyone know when the first gun control laws hit the books regarding restrictions on carry? I'm curious to know how long people had been packing heat prior to government intervention.

    I agree that many are not as familiar and guns aren't a cultural thing like they used to be. This is due to many things(greater # of the population living in cities, less farmers/hunters/outdoorsy people, breakdown of the family structure, mega marts-people don't need to hunt any more, a less agragrian sociaty, etc). Our world operates at such a faster pace than it used to. People are much more occupied with multiple things now days, I believe this causes people to be more neglegent and absent minded about many things in their lives.

    People feel that government will be there for them, they are less self sufficient, and we feel that just one more law will fix everything. When really we're just eroding our freedom bit by bit.


    I guess we can agree to disagree.
    Speak softly, and carry a big stick.

  13. #13
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    Sooner or later Americans are going to have to "re-learn" that responsibility and accountability belong to the individual and not the government.

    More laws aren't going to fix anything.
    I havenít heard any of the journalists who volunteered to be waterboarded asking to have their fingernails wrenched out with pliers, or electrodes attached to their genitals.

  14. #14
    EdC
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    From the report, the accident happened in the guy's home, so we're not talking permits to carry, necessarily. Anyway, the "4 Rules" are so simple and straightforward, and a person has to break 2 of them to do unintended damage. This guy apparently did just that by (1) pointing the gun a the child and (2) putting his finger on the trigger. It was stupid, irresponsible, and shows a complete lack of respect for firearms. (I wonder if the guy had a few, and was a little impaired).

    I understand why folks would see a tragedy like this cause for mandatory training. I think its because something like this makes people feel so damned helpless, and we want to do something, anything. Sure, if someone doesn't care one way or another, just taking a mandatory safety class is probably not going to do much, but I have to ask myself, would that have made a difference in this case? Maybe, maybe not, but if it did, the kid would be alive.

    I'm new to guns, started shooting in Spring 2008, so I took some training classes. Personally, if the law was that I had to have some training prior to buying a firearm, and being so ignorant about their proper use, I can't say that I would feel that my 2A rights were being "infringed" by having to take a class. It would just make sense to me.

  15. #15
    Member Array Napolean's Avatar
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    My Father just passed his handgun qualification for his CCW. It was his fifth time in his life (68-year-old) shooting a handgun and the first time he had EVER shot his brand new S&W M&P9. My Mom also qualified, but she grew up with firearms knowledge but has little proficiency. These qualification trials are a joke with modern firearms and only succeed in discouraging people from obtaining their CCW's. It would be better if the course was hours of law lecture and class discussion on the use of deadly force and self defense

    P.S. My folks understand that they need more training and are setting up other training events. I am very proud of them for their understanding of their abilities. On that note, I need more training also.

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