Drug effects on criminals

[NaturalSelection]

9mm, .40, .45, they're all the same to someone flippin out.

i would have to respectfully disagree with that statement. as my earlier heavily documented example of the moros tribesmen shows, caliber can and does make a difference. yes youll find all types of examples where someone took a 12ga. slug to the head, etc. but these instances are the exception and not the rule. carrying a big-bore is not a gaurantee that even a solid hit will stop your aggressor, but it definately improves your odds.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[Kel-Tec2006]

The violence often associated with PCP use is likely to be due to a combination of its multiple effects including its ability to block pain and its stimulant and psychedelic actions.

Took that from a site on PCP effects. Don't know much about this stuff myself-never even took a puff of weed. My parents put the fear of God into me about that stuff and thankfully it kept me away from it.

That being said, I remember reading something about a college student hopped up on it attacking the guard station. From what I remember, he smashed out their windows with his hands and beat a number of them severly before he could be restrained. I also know the sport I had the unfortunate experience of being involved in (powerlifting) has its share of PCP users pre lift. I guess it is easier to squat 1000 when you can't feel anything.

My advice-aim for the chest or head. I dont care what you are on, 230 grain hydra shoks from my .45 to the skull are going to stop you in your tracks, and leave one hell of a mess.

[Tubby45]

I recall Mas Ayoob discussing this a number of times at LFI when I went in 1996, on American Handgunner and other gun magazines; BG was on PCP and engaged by the Illinois State Police then armed with S&W Model 39's. The 9mm load used was a 100 grain soft point.

Ahhhh, yes. That is where it was from: IL. Didn't get too specific about details at school. They like to use "the was a case where..." and not tell where or who.

PCP is some nasty stuff. So is crystal meth.

[madmike]

Whatever their drug of choice, none will add to their IQ's or critical decision-making skills.

The lack of caring anything about "what" they have to do to "whoever" to get the money to pay for their libations doesn't improve their standing on the evolutionary scale, either.

Guess you can deduce where I stand on the issue of drug use, "recreational" or otherwise. . .

ZERO TOLLERANCE!

mm

[blacksan]

The whole caliber/hole issue goes out the window when someone does not give a dam about being shot. The perp stops when they bleed out in my experience. For everyone here that hunts you are well aware that animals can take tremendous amounts of damage at times and not go down for several minutes. The last whitetail I took received a very precise 30-caliber hole through the heart and still ran for about a 1/4 of a mile before just laying down and bleeding out. The real key is shot placement and not so much caliber. When I am asked about which gun/caliber to carry I always tell the person what ever combo you can handle and shot most efficiently. The second piece of advise I give is never ever assume the fight is over if the round, or rounds find there mark, that is just you opportunity to seek cover, or concealment while keeping an eye on the bad guy. The next step is to get help for the injured (yes even the bad guy) and while you wait for the police to arrive get in touch with your attorney. Last but not least you will most likely have your pistola taken by police and you will feel naked and vulnerable on your long ride home. My old department would give us another piece on the spot for physiological assurance and it was a good idea.

[Kompact9]

In the early '70's, I worked in downtown Houston. The building where I worked utilized off-duty Houston police officers for security. I came in one morning and noticed one of our usual officers bandaged up to hell wouldn't have him. I asked what had happened and he informed me that a PCP type had beat the @#$%^& out of him after putting 10 .357 rounds center mass. Why only 10? The guy got to him during the firing of his reload of the S & W (with 4 inch barrel) he carried. He only stopped beating the cop after he bled out. The cop had a broken clavicle, cracked skull, 2 broken ribs, 2 broken fingers, and teeth missing.

I remember from another thread that if you shoot someone, stay on the move as best you can and keep shooting till they stop or you run out of ammunition. Then run if you're out of ammo...

"Better living through chemistry" was an advertising slogan back then...I suppose that doesn't always hold true.

[Rob72]

I've seen numerous people shot with all major calibers: some died, some did not. Caliber is irrelevant, until you move up to the tissue "eradication" of the 12 gauge, .30 cal and above centerfire, or FA weapons. As "average" handgun carriers, our best bet is recognizing the "hinky" characters and avoiding them.

Synthesized meth, crack and PCP are in no way comparable to chewing the kat or coca (I can't remember which) that the Moros were using. Probably more relevant data would be the post-incident reports from LAPD, Dade Co FL, and similar, with regard to the ability of the"stimulated" individual to utilize edged weapons with limbs that had suffered destruction of >40% of muscle tissue, severance of all major tendons, and destruction of skeletal structures. "Here, there be Monsters......"

[elkhunter]

I can't say enough, how I appreciate what you LEO's do and have to deal with.
I was told in basic pistol class, that one way to deal with someone "cranked up" is to take out his hips. The idea was, if the bones are no longer attached in the main frame, he can't move like he could when fully in-tact.

As a "meat" hunter, I subscribe to the "Placement" rather than firepower tactic. (I'd like to have some meat to eat when it is all done.)
That tactic can pay off in a fight I suppose. Fact is, I'm not LE, so my main tactic is to avoid situations like that. God bless you guys who are paid to engage those people. (Personally, I don't think you are paid enough.)

Thanks for your service!

[NaturalSelection]

Synthesized meth, crack and PCP are in no way comparable to chewing the kat or coca (I can't remember which) that the Moros were using.

it enabled them to continue to advance after taking 6 slugs from a .38 colt. id say the effects are quite similar.

there will always be those who feel that caliber is irrelevant, and there will always be those who know better.....er....sorry, i meant to say who believe otherwise . since this isnt a black and white issue there is no way to conclusively settle the debate. for every study that supports one way of thinking, there is a study that supports the other. this leaves you with forming your own beliefs and then learning to shoot whatever you end up with.

i remember when police officers carried .38 specials. my grandfather (police officer), was shot and killed with his own weapon (a .38) after shooting a druken bad guy with it. the bad guy left the scene wounded, returned, snuck up behind my grandfather and grabbed his weapon. i remember watching police departments switch over to the .357 magnum. they took a small step backwards to the 9mm for capacity, then up to the .40 because the 9mm was proving to be ineffective when compared to larger bullets. many have since gone on to the .45 acp, and there is a large LEO following for the .357 auto giving the best of both (similar capacity of the 9mm, with similar energy of the .357 magnum). i really dont think police departments across the country are spending this money to equip and retrain their officers out of boredom or for any reason other than wanting more "stopping power" because even though it isnt a guarantee that youll stop the bad guy, statistically it definately improves your odds.

all that said, im not suggesting that the 9mm is an inadequate round.....i just bought a glock 9mm for my wife....im just saying that with comparable accuracy, a larger bullet is better. in +P the 9mm can be very effective and i trust 9mm +P loads completely......i just trust .45 acp +P loads more, and im learning to trust corbon .357 autos really fast.

[HotGuns]

Heres another "meth" story for yall...

We got a call that a women was making a nuisance of herself at a small mom and pop gas station, and that she was hurt. Apparently, she had wrecked her car when she slid on a patch of ice, went into the ditch and stopped on a large oak tree. The owners wanted to call the law, but she insisted that they werent needed and begged and pleaded with them to call her boyfriend to come get her.

While we were enroute, the ambulance was called to the same location, not knowing what the deal was we stepped it up as it was quite aways off. The owners had called the ambulance.

As it turns out, the woman had left the scene of an accident and walked over a mile to this store. That in itself is not a big deal. What the owners of the shop noticed is that she was hobbling around and she had an obviously broken leg...obvious to everyone but her. She had sustained a compound fracture right about the ankle and the end of the bone had been impacted into the ground while she was walking. It had mud and grass in and was a filthy mess...but she maintained that she was OK and it didnt hurt.

She was so high on meth that she felt no pain.

A little over a year later, I took her to the pyscho hospital. She was a certifiable lunatic,(had the papers to prove it) and had completley blown her mind on drugs. She still had pins in her leg and still couldnt walk well. She had undergone numerous surgeries while in the county jail, complements of the tax payers. She had became a habitual meth user and was in and out of jail constantly. She eventually lost her boyfriend, her family and ultimatley her mind.

[P95Carry]

I tell ya what HG - this meth deal is seemingly on an exponential increase.

My sort of semi-rural area is probably worse for the labs - even out to true rural - and because it seems so little gear is needed to make the evil stuff - no sooner does one get nailed and stopped than another one or two spring up.

It is a scourge.

[exposurecontrol]

Well I got into a similar discussion on another forum and wound up raising the hackles of several members. I work in a clinic and made the comment that I see a number of patients who come in and are taking a variety of pain killers and/or phych meds (by psych med I don't mean Wellbutrin, Zoloft, ect, but things like Haldol or Risperdal) whom I would not want to see carrying a gun. Generally because they are presenting slow/altered physical response, altered speech, etc. Anyway, it turns out several members were taking some of those meds and took exception to it, when in fact the only point I was trying to make was that If we are on a medicine (not any different than drinking alcohol), that affects our reaction time/reasoning; we might want to leave the gun at home until we're off the med.

[P95Carry]

EC - perfectly valid comment of yours I'd say.

The qualifying factor tho could well be ''doseage'' - not saying that normal doseage not potentially able to slow someone but - the folks who take and abuse drugs seem to usually work in 10x factors, to get their buzz!

We should all be mindful of med's effects when it comes to CCW.

[rocky]

Well I got into a similar discussion on another forum and wound up raising the hackles of several members. I work in a clinic and made the comment that I see a number of patients who come in and are taking a variety of pain killers and/or phych meds (by psych med I don't mean Wellbutrin, Zoloft, ect, but things like Haldol or Risperdal) whom I would not want to see carrying a gun. Generally because they are presenting slow/altered physical response, altered speech, etc. Anyway, it turns out several members were taking some of those meds and took exception to it, when in fact the only point I was trying to make was that If we are on a medicine (not any different than drinking alcohol), that affects our reaction time/reasoning; we might want to leave the gun at home until we're off the med.

This is an extemely good point. People who drive vehicles while using some (legal) drugs are charged with operating under the influence. Carrying a weapon seems to fall into the same catagory. Yes , folks here have mentioned they have to take drugs for conditions they have. They need to evaluate their choices and decide how there meds effect them.
Perhaps those who are on the meds should consider less lethal devices for protection. For their own and societies safety.

[Rob72]

I tell ya what HG - this meth deal is seemingly on an exponential increase.

My sort of semi-rural area is probably worse for the labs - even out to true rural - and because it seems so little gear is needed to make the evil stuff - no sooner does one get nailed and stopped than another one or two spring up.

It is a scourge.

An entire "lab" can be transported in the trunk of a car. Which makes traffic-stops an even dicier event.