January 30th, 2006 12:41 PM
This is why GG's should wear white hats like the olden days......
"Just because I'm paranoid,doesn't mean they're NOT after me...."
January 30th, 2006 12:46 PM
I think gddyup covered the situation fairly well...
noli nothis permittere te terere...
January 30th, 2006 02:28 PM
Copied from another forum, but pertinent to this thread:
"Police shoot off-duty NYPD officer holding gun
Hit three times, Eric Hernandez is hospitalized in critical condition
Updated: 2:51 p.m. ET Jan. 28, 2006
NEW YORK - In a tragic case of mistaken identity, police shot and critically wounded an off-duty officer as he pointed a gun at a suspect outside a fast food restaurant early Saturday, authorities said.
Eric Hernandez, 24, was hit three times and was hospitalized in extremely critical condition, Mayor Michael Bloomberg said.
The officer who pulled the trigger, identified only as a 20-year veteran of the force, was being treated for trauma at another hospital.
Hernandez had been in line at a White Castle restaurant in the Bronx shortly before 5 a.m. when he was assaulted by a half-dozen men, Bloomberg said. It wasn’t immediately clear what sparked the fight, but it was captured on the restaurant’s security camera.
A White Castle employee called 911, and Hernandez—with his gun drawn—ran into the parking lot after his assailants, Bloomberg said.
He apparently subdued one of the suspects, and when a patrol car arrived, was pointing his gun at a man on the ground.
One of the two officers, apparently believing Hernandez was about to shoot,in the car opened fire, Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said.
Hernandez, who joined the force in 2004, never fired his weapon, authorities said. He was shot in each leg and the abdomen and lost a lot of blood, Bloomberg said.
Kelly said officials were questioning eight individuals about the shooting, including the six who fought with Hernandez inside the White Castle.
It was believed to be the NYPD’s first friendly fire shooting since Desmond Robinson, who wasn’t in uniform, was shot in the back by an off-duty officer in 1994. Robinson had his gun drawn on a subway platform, and the officer mistook him for a criminal."
Man, further reason why you don't want to have a gun in your hand unless absolutely necesarry when the police arrive.
This is obviously a tough issue. As the above illustrates, even the professionals are fooled at times. I'm inclined to think that if possible, you should holster the weapon. Additionally, you might consider positioning yourself so that you are facing the door and can see approaching officers.
Massad Ayoob has a dated, but good video on this very topic. It is geared toward off duty LEO's, but applies to "us" as well. I believe it is called "Off Duty Survival."
January 30th, 2006 03:50 PM
Wow - indeed very pertinent to the subject.
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
- a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.
January 30th, 2006 07:08 PM
Pertinent to this thread? Oh yes, without a doubt!
But, (you had to know this was coming!) I would not want to use this single incident to base my personal code of conduct upon.
I really do understand the position of carrying to "protect me and mine." But I cannot accept the addition of a concrete "and mine alone" to that statement.
I've no way of knowing how many who do attach that "mine alone" part, do so without any exclusion, whatsoever.
I'm not an LEO, or an LEO-wannabe. I have no fantasy about "saving the world." I don't know that the world needs saving and I'm not always sure it's worth saving.
The one thing I am sure of, is that I have my own personal code of ethics, or conduct, if you will, and there are some lines I do feel compelled to cross.
I don't want to waste bandwidth repeating an epic-length post here. I have pretty much said all I have the energy to say in another thread in the "Tactical Scenarios" section, in the thread started by apcarmed, about "What do you do? Really?"
My "little" addition to that discussion is somewhere near the bottom of page three.
Feel free to dissect that post, Lord knows its full of holes, but it is true and does explain where I differ in my opinion of just how far I will go.
That's not to say I might not act otherwise, under different circumstances, but what I did do, that time. There's no doubt that some, maybe many, will conclude that I was just plain wrong. That's OK with me.
I do have to concern myself with what's right for me, as I'm the one that will have to live with my decision, not you. (That was not meant to sound antagonistic, I can only hope it isn't read that way.)
My grasp of the language often frustrates me. Too bad it's the only one I speak!
Political Correctness has now "evolved" into Political Cowardice.
January 30th, 2006 07:36 PM
Madmike i whole heartidly agree with your statement You must do whats right for You, just as I must do what i see right . My personal code says that i am not bound to intervene in every wrong i see , and most i will not other than as posted above because My perception of what is right for ME is to go home to and with my loved ones no matter what. Does this mean i will absolutly never step inn no it doesnt, there are things i absolutly will not stand by for as long as i breathe . That being said , any adult has had the oppertuntity to equip thiemselves for self defense ( and before someone says it abuse of the elderly, disabled, or children are 3 of the things i wont stand for ) if they have chosen not to equip themselves i dont feel i am honor bound to bail thier blissninny butts out of much of anything . i really dont feel that we have all that different a view point on the matter , just that we approch it from oppisite ends of the spectrum and articulate ourselves differently. There is a time for intervention , but it is dammed seldom imho. anyway if we do disagree well then Isnt America and this forum great , we can disagree on an issue and still have civil discourse LOL
January 30th, 2006 07:44 PM
Sir, you certainly have my respect!
I did harbor the "suspicion" that most of us are not going to be very far apart on the fundamental issues.
Thanks for confirming that "suspicion."
As for what's right for one not always being what's right for another, truer words were never spoken.
Political Correctness has now "evolved" into Political Cowardice.
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