Profiling

This is a discussion on Profiling within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I am wondering how effective profiling is for CC. My wife and I are out this sunday afternoon to watch Gran Torino (great movie), the ...

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Thread: Profiling

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    Member Array farmerbyron's Avatar
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    Profiling

    I am wondering how effective profiling is for CC. My wife and I are out this sunday afternoon to watch Gran Torino (great movie), the mall parking lot is packed for some odd reason so I have to park in BFE. Anyhow we get out and are walking to the door and I hear footsteps that sound pretty close so I look over my right shoulder and it's a normal looking guy about the same as me, mid-late 20s white guy dressed like a decent human, not a threat. He had just parked near me at it's cold so he eventually just walks around us. I just wonder how niave I am being leaving my 6 o'clock somewhat open just because a guy does not "look" like a threat.

    Maybe it makes me racist or something but if it had been a guy in a hoody and baggy pants I would have been on full alert. Thing is I don't care if it had been a white guy in a hoody, still defcon would be at 2. The demeaner and first impression go a long way in determining threats for me. I just don't want to be a freak and bob and weave to aviod passing within 30 feet of any stranger in public.
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    Personally I watch everyone I can , but do profile somewhat and may pay more attention to someone dressed more "gangster". However the Biggest indicator I use is how much attention they seem to be paying me.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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    Senior Member Array luvmyglock's Avatar
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    "Have a plan to kill everyone you meet, but be polite and courteous". I don't think that you are a freak if you assess each individual for what they could potentially be: a threat. Don't avoid people because they may be a threat; instead assess the situation and have a plan for defense should things go south. Every person you pass could be a threat, but you should not treat them that way until they prove to be one. By then it is too late, unless you followed step #1 and had a plan. Good luck in your travels.
    EVIL PREVAILS WHEN GOOD MEN FAIL TO ACT.

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farmerbyron View Post
    I am wondering how effective profiling is for CC.
    Discerning differences and roughly correlating to known trends is something we do every day. It's called people watching, basically, and it's a crucial skill when committing to having an awareness of the people and situation around you. Nay-sayers call it profiling. But its what helps you separate the wheat from the chaff, security-wise. Without it, IMO your security is much less effective.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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    Distinguished Member Array Rugergirl's Avatar
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    In the CPL class I took last Sunday in the Metro Detroit area, the instructors brought up the subject of racial profiling and racism and told the black people in the class they should be aware of the possibility of it happening.
    It is a touchy issue but I thought it was a good point to address and the black people in the class seemed to agree and didn't seem offended.
    Black white yellow or purple, I always have my radar on the minute I walk out of any door.
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    Member Array Tigrebleau's Avatar
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    You're not unusual. Even Jesse Jackson said that when he sees 3 black kids walking toward him in NYC at night, he gets more nervous than if it were 3 white businessmen. MLK Jr. said we should judge people by the content of their character, with which I'd wager we'd all agree. What he didn't explain was how to judge the content of one's charactrer, which has to be through his/her actions. What some don't realize (or maybe don't care about) is that their actions reflect on whatever group they are members of. An important lesson that the CCW community seems to have learned, thank goodness.

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    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    ...so I look over my right shoulder and it's a normal looking guy about the same as me, mid-late 20s white guy dressed like a decent human, not a threat. ... I just wonder how niave I am being leaving my 6 o'clock somewhat open just because a guy does not "look" like a threat.
    Well, honestly, yes, you are being somewhat naive. Now, you are not alone. Most of us probably do this. But, it could cost us. Remember Ted Bundy? Great guy. Well-dressed. Mild-mannered...'til he killed girls all across the country. He would use tricks to gain their help or acceptance, and, in the process, sign their own death warrants. One of his tricks was to wear a sling and ask a young lady for help.

    Maybe it makes me racist or something but if it had been a guy in a hoody and baggy pants I would have been on full alert. Thing is I don't care if it had been a white guy in a hoody, still defcon would be at 2. The demeaner and first impression go a long way in determining threats for me.
    Again, you are profiling. Again, you are not alone. We need to be aware that some people who are dangerous are not going to look dangerous. To think otherwise could cost us our lives.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

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    VIP Member Array sass20485's Avatar
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    What's a BG look like?? ANYBODY !! Looking clean cut or average and non descript makes for nice camo to through off a potential victim alertness, rather than the urban thug look. The old saying don't judge a book by its cover. Sure, certain looks can raise your awareness, but ANYBODY can be a threat, watch them all.

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    Member Array KralBlbec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miklcolt45 View Post
    Well, honestly, yes, you are being somewhat naive. Now, you are not alone. Most of us probably do this. But, it could cost us. Remember Ted Bundy? Great guy. Well-dressed. Mild-mannered...'til he killed girls all across the country. He would use tricks to gain their help or acceptance, and, in the process, sign their own death warrants. One of his tricks was to wear a sling and ask a young lady for help.



    Again, you are profiling. Again, you are not alone. We need to be aware that some people who are dangerous are not going to look dangerous. To think otherwise could cost us our lives.
    In his defense, there is a huge difference in the type of criminal that Ted Bundy was and a mugger. Muggers are looking for easy money and that usually shows in their dress and attitude. Most of the time they *look* low class, because they are. Ted Bundy types arent looking for money. They are stalkers who think out their plan and work them out. They look for easy targets and are patient because they do it for thrills. Its a threat still, but a different type.

    IMO, I am much less concered about the white/black guy in a suit approaching me than the white/black guy with his pants almost falling off. Sure its profilling, but that doesnt mean it is bad. It would be racist if I grouped the black guy in a suit with black guy in trashy clothes together, however what I'm looking for isnt their skin, its their countenance.

    EDIT:
    The guys in suits I would be more concered about in respect to being the Ted Bundy types.

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    Senior Member Array preachertim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    Personally I watch everyone I can , but do profile somewhat and may pay more attention to someone dressed more "gangster". However the Biggest indicator I use is how much attention they seem to be paying me.
    Great Advice. Underestimating everyone will get you killed. Your Job is to prepare and hope to never have to use it. A failure to plan is a plan to fail.
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    Member Array farmerbyron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miklcolt45 View Post
    Well, honestly, yes, you are being somewhat naive. Now, you are not alone. Most of us probably do this. But, it could cost us. Remember Ted Bundy? Great guy. Well-dressed. Mild-mannered...'til he killed girls all across the country. He would use tricks to gain their help or acceptance, and, in the process, sign their own death warrants. One of his tricks was to wear a sling and ask a young lady for help.
    I wonder what would happen if a serial killer like Bundy got ahold of a CCer?
    The Second Amendment ...... Because crime SHOULD be a hazardous occupation.

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    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farmerbyron View Post
    I wonder what would happen if a serial killer like Bundy got ahold of a CCer?
    Of course, he was only out for easy marks, if I recall. Young women, trusting women, vulnerable.

    The bottom line for all of us is to stay alert, to the best of our abilities. I think of the thread of the guy whose wife was being watched by a car that drove down his street 4 times.

    Stay armed...stay alert...stay safe. (to quote someone we know)
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

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    Albert Einstein

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    Ahhh the politically incorrect thing profiling. Threat assessment based upon "profiling" is perfectly normal and actually a good thing. Now basing threat level based on skin color is not a good thing and profiling can be used in a bad manner. But even the courts have approved of profiling at times to allow for police intervention.

    I dont have my books with me atm but there was a case where a border patrol officer spotted a person in a minivan taking routs around the check points (strike 1) people inside were overly friendly (strike 2 for strange behavior) and also saw the kids sitting on something that he could not identify (strike 3), and this was happening during a shift change when border patrol was not normally out (strike 4). Taking all these deviant behaviors he initiated a stop and found out that the kids were sitting on a lot of drugs. that agent used profiling to identify someone doing something illegal.

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sass20485 View Post
    What's a BG look like?? ANYBODY !! Looking clean cut or average and non descript makes for nice camo to through off a potential victim alertness, rather than the urban thug look. The old saying don't judge a book by its cover. Sure, certain looks can raise your awareness, but ANYBODY can be a threat, watch them all.
    Can't watch 'em all, in many circumstances. You do the best you can.

    The thing about books is this: a ratty book cover is more likely to stink. Doesn't mean it will. It simply means it's more likely. And that's a simple matter of correlation of factors that tend to move with the reality of aging and use. No two ways around it. And that's the point of paying attention to telltale signs. They might well not indicate what they suggest, in a given instance. But they tend to correlate with increased likelihood of exactly that.

    When 100 crimes occur with criminals attacking unsuspecting marks on the street, and 80% of them show up in their mugs shots as being of the haggard, strung-out, dirty and gangsta-looking variety in their mug shots, then it's highly risky to consider as irrelevant those "typical," correlating characteristics in a given potential inbound adversary on the street.

    Combine those likely characteristics with behavior, increased attention on the part of the inbound, increased energy/tension ... and you've got the makings of a crime about to happen. Ain't nothin' for certain. It's simply a matter of probabilities, and paying attention to the increased risk.

    "Profiling" isn't a bad thing. It's what we do to help provide clues to a puzzle. Just remember: it's a puzzle with life-and-death ramifications, if you get it wrong. Better to consider the telltale signs and consider they might well be right, than ignoring them for the PC considerations of others. Damn the PC considerations, if it keeps you and yours alive and breathing.
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    Member Array CharlieMike's Avatar
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    I don't think there is anything wrong with "profiling". Particularly when it comes to how people dress.

    Frankly, a lot of hip-hop culture is an attempt to, some degree, adopt appearance of criminality. Like other subversive styles (punk rocker, emo, goth, &c) it is meant to be threatening to other generations or dissimilar cultures. These styles are usually just a costume and don't really reflect the real intentions of the wearer -- except maybe to piss of his or her parents or to fit in with other kids.

    Again, what makes modern hip-hop culture unique is that criminality is at the core of the look. The baggy pants come from prison culture where incarcerated people aren't allowed to wear belts and the baggy clothes make it easier to conceal drugs and weapons, &c.

    When you see someone wearing a "hip-hop costume", you have a right to react the way you would when you see a criminal -- this is the desired effect, even if the poor kid knows it or not.

    To the point: Although we'd like to think that we treat everyone with equal distrust, the truth is that maybe we consider people who look like criminals more carefully. Unfortunately, there are a lot of African American kids wearing the "modern hip-hop" costume so it doesn't necessarily mean you are racist because people in baggy clothes raise your hackles. I believe you when you say that you'd react the same way to anyone wearing those kind of clothes and I think anyone would be right to do so.

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