Wife took CCP Course - Odd Advice

[Pitbull]

All -

My wife took the VA Safety Course required to get her CCP yesterday. I am and have been a VA CCP holder for about 2 1/2 years now. The reason for this writing, and I apologize in advance if I get verbose, is that she got what seems to me to be very odd advice with regards to concealed carry in an establishment that serves alcohol for on-premises consumption.

In the Commonwealth of VA, we cannot, per the law, carry concealed in any establishment that serves alcohol for consumption on premises. However, being an open-carry state, the conventional practice is to switch to an open carry posture. Most places are very reasonable about this.

However, the instructor told my wife (and the rest of the class) to carry concealed in these environments. Huh? He then went on to cite a (recent, I'm assuming) court case involving several members of the Virginia Citizens Defense League (abbreviated VCDL herein) in which upon open carrying in a restaurant, police were called, they ended up in court and subsequently lost CCP priviledges forever because they "incited fear" and were "brandishing" their weapons. The instructor then went on to say that the options one has are: 1) carry concealed, despite the law, and said the section that outlines this situation is written vaguely anyway, 2) leave the gun in your car, which, I think we can agree, is less than ideal.

A few of my thoughts. Anyone who's attended a gunshow or NRA event in Virginia has doubtlessly run into these characters from the VCDL. With apologies to any VCDL members who don't fit my forthcoming description, frankly, these people give "normal" gun advocates a bad name. In my experience, they have adopted some paramilitary appearance, wearing surplus BDU's or tacti-cool gear, Hi-Tech boots, etc. They set up tables with literature outlining doomsday predictions about the government or other evildoers plotting to destroy our way of life as we speak. Worse, they ALWAYS have young kids with them, also dressed to the 9's in some strange ensemble of militaria and spouting the same drivel the adults are, though coming out of childrens' mouths it smacks of right-wing brainwashing. Again, apologies to people belonging to this organization if I've misrepresented you, perhaps you should more closely vet those chosen to represent you at gun shows, etc.

Anyway - I can certainly see patrons of a restaurant getting excited if a largish group of militia-esque people carrying sidearms walks into the restaurant and, if experience is any indication, loudly and indignantly reciting their rights when asked to remove their weapons.

But what about just me, or me and a friend, who, being normally dressed, switch to an open carry posture upon entering such a restaurant? I'm normally decently dressed and go out of my way to not advertise that I'm carrying by keeping my arm against my side, sitting against a wall, etc. If asked to remove the firearm or leave, I would respectfully leave. Is what happened to these VCDL guys precedent? Are my concealed carry rights in danger because I FOLLOW THE LETTER OF THE LAW?

Does anyone else have any information regarding this case?

Any VCDL members care to comment?

Other thoughts - was the instructor way off? What should I tell my wife, now that she's been given conflicting information?

The law in VA seems clearly written AND a bill to change it was just vetoed by our all-knowing and powerful governor. Why, after being carefully vetted by the state and being determined to be a law abiding citizen would anyone be encouraged to break the law?

Discuss!

Andy

[Inserted by JD]
Skip to post 18 and read before posting.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[gilraen]

I don't live in Virginia, but if I were you, I'd suggest to your wife that she follow the letter of the law. Then teach her how to become a "grey woman" so that most people won't notice that she carries.

[Pitbull]

I don't live in Virginia, but if I were you, I'd suggest to your wife that she follow the letter of the law. Then teach her how to become a "grey woman" so that most people won't notice that she carries.

That's exactly what I did.

And she's been hanging around with me while I carry to know not to advertise. I do like the term "grey woman" though... Consider it borrowed.

[JD]

As a certified instructor and VA resident...

Yes, her instructor needs to have his credentials pulled, telling students to violate the law.

What an example he is.

Regarding VA and brandishing.

Virginia

§ 18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operated weapon or object similar in appearance; penalty.

A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.

B. Any police officer in the performance of his duty, in making an arrest under the provisions of this section, shall not be civilly liable in damages for injuries or death resulting to the person being arrested if he had reason to believe that the person being arrested was pointing, holding, or brandishing such firearm or air or gas operated weapon, or object that was similar in appearance, with intent to induce fear in the mind of another.

C. For purposes of this section, the word "firearm" means any weapon that will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel single or multiple projectiles by the action of an explosion of a combustible material. The word "ammunition," as used herein, shall mean a cartridge, pellet, ball, missile or projectile adapted for use in a firearm.

Openly carrying a holstered firearm is NOT brandishing.

Regarding people loosing their license for OC'ing at restaurants in VA, I have not heard of that instance, yes I've heard of the cops being called, but I don't recall of any instance where one's license was revoked. I often OC while in such establishments, we even had a multi-forum open carry lunch in Leesville with no issue and there were about 30 of us.

The most noted case where the police responded to a restaurant was in 2007 at Tony's Pizza, details can be found HERE.

Regarding the VCDL, some of them seem a little "off" to me, but for the most part they are stand up guys and they ARE the pro-gun factor in VA politics.

But what about just me, or me and a friend, who, being normally dressed, switch to an open carry posture upon entering such a restaurant? I'm normally decently dressed and go out of my way to not advertise that I'm carrying by keeping my arm against my side, sitting against a wall, etc. If asked to remove the firearm or leave, I would respectfully leave. Is what happened to these VCDL guys precedent? Are my concealed carry rights in danger because I FOLLOW THE LETTER OF THE LAW?

Again, my wife and I both OC in restaurants that serve, as well does on half of the other couple we are usually out to eat with.

DO NOT VIOLATE the law, one is in more danger of legal repercussions by violating the law than by acting in accordance with the law.

[wmhawth]

All -
In the Commonwealth of VA, we cannot, per the law, carry concealed in any establishment that serves alcohol for consumption on premises. However, being an open-carry state, the conventional practice is to switch to an open carry posture. Most places are very reasonable about this.

However, the instructor told my wife (and the rest of the class) to carry concealed in these environments. Huh? Andy

That law makes little sense however it apparently is the law in the Commonwealth of VA and must be adhered to. The instructor was dead wrong to advise his class to break the law.

[kazzaerexys]

If the instructor actually advised his students to break the law, I would consider a pointed letter to the organization that employs him (if he isn't a freelancer).

And, frankly, I would consider that instructor to be much worse for the overall reputation of legal carry than any modest number of mall-ninja wannabes in the VCDL. I am not in Virginia and I follow the VCDL with no more than passing interest, but I think you do them a disservice with the gross characterization you implied above.

[JD]

Pitbull, you may also find this thread of interest: http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...ow-w-poll.html

[SIXTO]

If that is in fact what the instructor said, he is a quack. He is only one of many though. It doesn't matter how one feels personally about a particular law, it is reckless to tell people to go ahead and break the law, especially in order to promote an agenda.
I hope he is not a rep. of VCDL, although I wouldn't be surprised, it seems to be the norm for them.

Other than that, I'm tired of hearing about VA bar and restaurant law. The law isn't all that uncommon and not hard to follow. I hope it gets changed too, but doing things like this are not helping their case.

[Pitbull]

I am not in Virginia and I follow the VCDL with no more than passing interest, but I think you do them a disservice with the gross characterization you implied above.

Again - my experience with them is limited. I'm sure there are many "normal" members - they are just not the ones standing at the VCDL table handing out pamphlets. I apologized, twice, to the VCDL, in my post.

[spooter66]

Haven't heard anything about the case, but it wouldn't be the first time a course instructor got caught giving out bad info because they had problems with certain parts of the law.

Years ago when I took a NRA gun course the instructor (a police officer) stated that open carry was illegal in PA. Myself and a few others in the class knew this was a lie, we bit our tongues until after the class then confronted the officer. He knew it was legal but had a personal problem with it so he told his students the lie hoping they wouldn't do it. The moral of the story is don't always believe the instructor they sometimes have their own agenda.

So far as I know the Virginia Tuck method has been in use for a while with very few problems and has been a well established legal method of carry in restaurants that serve alcohol. For the instructor to say keeping it concealed is an option reflects very badly on the instructor, it makes it appear that he's is recommending breaking the law.

This may not matter much in the future, if I remember correctly there is a bill in the works that gets rid of this stupid requirement in Virginia. Let's hope it passes.

[Pitbull]

This may not matter much in the future, if I remember correctly there is a bill in the works that gets rid of this stupid requirement in Virginia. Let's hope it passes.

There was and is. And, in their defense the VCDL has been instrumental in getting this nonsense fixed.

However it WAS vetoed by the government after passing the state legislature. I'm sure it WILL be again.

[SIXTO]

Years ago when I took a NRA gun course the instructor (a police officer) stated that open carry was illegal in PA. Myself and a few others in the class knew this was a lie, we bit our tongues until after the class then confronted the officer. He knew it was legal but had a personal problem with it so he told his students the lie hoping they wouldn't do it. The moral of the story is don't always believe the instructor they sometimes have their own agenda.

On the rare occasion I teach a CCW class, I tell them that OC is legal, however, it can bring a host of other legal woes, listing other state charges that a case could be built on based on the situation. Some over zealous types sometimes try to call me out on the same thing you did... but I'm simply pointing out the other possible problems that my be created with OC. Sometimes the like to have their head in the sand.
IMO, its important to have as much information and facts prior to hitting the streets. I try to present both sides of the hot topics and let people decide for themselves what they want to do. But without fail, each and every time, I have at least one claim I'm only representing one side or the other.

The point in all this rambling is that sometimes people hear what the want to hear, not necessarily what was said.

[waddy]

Would you please explain the "Virginia Tuck" method? I'm not familiar with that term. I would appreciate it very much. Thanks in advance.

[Pitbull]

Would you please explain the "Virginia Tuck" method? I'm not familiar with that term. I would appreciate it very much. Thanks in advance.

Virginia Tuck = simply tucking your overshirt behind the grip of an otherwise concealed and holstered weapon, thereby complying with the legal obligation to open carry where necessary.

[Paymeister]

[Just to put this part to rest: the idea (I think) is that if you're carrying openly, Joe Beercourage will choose not to pick a fight with you, while if you're carrying concealed he might proceed and get shot. It doesn't take legislators much to go on to produce legislation.]

She should follow the law - duh! If she acts like it's normal and makes an attempt to face her weapon away from the other patrons she is likely never to be noticed. A dark-colored top behind a dark grip also helps.

I would encourage you to pursue the instructor's remarks with his or her employer or sponsoring organization. I wouldn't go for his head over the door, but rather say, "This is what my wife THOUGHT she heard... what is your opinion of this advice?" If you get the response I think you'll get, you could suggest politely that they discuss it with the instructor to review what should be taught. This gives everyone an opportunity to save face, and corrects his misguided view.

You asked about possible mischaracterization of the VCDL folks: I must say you've seen some doozies, and I'm not doubting your assessment of the ones you've seen. However (and my training is showing here), you must beware of "sampling bias". For example, if the next three out of five idiot drivers you see are women, you might be tempted to make a generalization about women drivers. But if four out of five drivers are women, the percentages would be lower in your sample than in the community and you would have demonstrated, actually, that they're safer than guys. The problem was not with your math, but with the assumption that the sample of five was in fact drawn randomly from the larger group.

In this case, you have indeed seen people you're worried about. However, I would submit that there are likely to be LOTS more "grey men and women" who belong to VCDL who you don't notice... deliberately, on their part, perhaps. They aren't seen, so you don't realize that the pool from which the whack jobs are drawn may actually be comprised of mostly 'together' types.

My own sample is only six people: they were around a table at a show in Roanoke, and were the accountant-admin assistant-dentist-milkman types. I know one of them moderately well from work, and he's about as thoughtful, careful, and unassuming a person as you could hope to meet. Can I assume that all VCDL folks are like these? Sure... until I get more information. Your words suggest to me that there's a range of character types in the group - I hope my words suggest the same for you.