Interesting article regarding TX open carry and campus carry - Page 2

Interesting article regarding TX open carry and campus carry

This is a discussion on Interesting article regarding TX open carry and campus carry within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; As for the wild, wild west - it isn't allowing for MORE people to carry - you still have to have the license - it ...

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Thread: Interesting article regarding TX open carry and campus carry

  1. #16
    Member Array ChiWeiSz's Avatar
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    As for the wild, wild west - it isn't allowing for MORE people to carry - you still have to have the license - it just allows those of us who are licensed, to carry in whatever way we want. I personally want the OC to pass.

    As was stated - the BG's will think again about attacking when there is a badge showing, and where there are guns readily accessible.
    Trying to leave as large a carbon footprint as possible.
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  2. #17
    Member Array wine6978's Avatar
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    I go to school in Kingsville, TX and I am one hundred percent for the passing of concealed carry on campus. Actually I am an active member of the SCCC (Students for Concealed Carry on Campus) and am trying to get as many factulty memebers as I can to join our cause. I hope we can have something happen soon.

  3. #18
    Member Array NativH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wine6978 View Post
    I go to school in Kingsville, TX and I am one hundred percent for the passing of concealed carry on campus. Actually I am an active member of the SCCC (Students for Concealed Carry on Campus) and am trying to get as many factulty memebers as I can to join our cause. I hope we can have something happen soon.
    Best of luck to you. I know I'd want to carry if I was on a campus these days. Wish we had it at A&M back in the 70's but we didn't carry pistols back then. Just rifles. Go figure.
    SE Texas Patriot Guard Rider, NRA Patron, TSRA Life Member

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
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    I think as long as the OC crowd emphasizes the fact that any people deciding to OC go through the same training as tghe CHL folks, they have a pretty good chance of passing it in the next couple of sessions. As for campus carry, I don't know about that, I think well-written pre-emption law could take care of that issue as well as settling issues as to where you can and cannot carry.
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M2 View Post
    Many advocates of OC use this as an argument for support; but the truth is that OC won't give CHL holders any more protection that what currently exists!
    That's true assuming law enforcement and prosecutors execute the law in good faith. As I understand people aren't convicted under this law, but how many are harassed, arrested, or charged? I believe that even if that number is zero, we would have more protection against police power, and that' nothing to simply dismiss out of hand.

    For example, on it's concealed handgun law FAQ, the DPS has this question:

    Q: What does "concealed" mean?
    A: "Concealed" means that the weapon cannot be visible, and that its
    presence cannot be discernible through ordinary observation. It is a
    criminal offense for a license holder to carry a handgun in plain view,
    or to intentionally fail to conceal the weapon.

    That's hardly the wording you posted earlier. It implies to me that the DPS interprets that it's a crime to print, or intentionally fail to conceal. I doubt that the number of CHL holders harassed, arrested or charged under is zero.

  6. #21
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiWeiSz View Post
    As for the wild, wild west - it isn't allowing for MORE people to carry - you still have to have the license - it just allows those of us who are licensed, to carry in whatever way we want. I personally want the OC to pass.

    As was stated - the BG's will think again about attacking when there is a badge showing, and where there are guns readily accessible.
    I haven't looked lately, but the open carry group wanted open carry without registration.

  7. #22
    Senior Member Array dldeuce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camjr View Post
    Here in Texas, there is a big debate going on with gun-owners and CHL holders over the wisdom of Open Carry. As a CHL holder, the only reason I would want OC to pass would be to minimize or eliminate the penalty for mistakenly showing a concealed firearm. I can see the wisdom of OC, but it's not a big deal to me.
    Here's why I think it's a big deal for CHL holders. If open carry passes, a big portion of the regulation against CHL would be rendered moot. All of those silly restrictions like back taxes, student loans, extensive background checks, expensive fees, and CHL training course were only put in there to limit who can carry in public and to make it much more onerous and difficult to carry at all. All of that would be moot if everyone can already carry without all that. Many of these laws would fall in subsequent legislative sessions.

    Secondly, it's important to all citizens of Texas, not just CHL holders. All of these firearm laws are unconstitutional under our state constitution. Our constitution was amended in 1876 to specifically restrict the legislature from regulating keep and bear at their whim. After the lessons of a despot reconstructionist governor, Texas remembered why we became an independent republic in the first place, and that is to keep the government from infringing on our right to arms. Just forty some odd years after fighting for our independence against Santa Anna and to keep our arms, we forgot that.

    The 1876 amendment was intended to correct the big mistake of giving the legislature the power to infringe on keep and bear at their whim. It repealed the amendment to the constitution made in 1868 that gave them that power. It changed "under such regulations as the legislature may prescribe. " to "the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms, with a view to prevent crime. " It was intended to repeal the 1871 ban on public gun possession, but that never happened.

    Open carry in Texas would restore an important part of our constitutional rights that we never got back after the civil war. It would be an important safeguard for all citizens of Texas against government infringement against all of our rights. To understand why that's important to all of us, look to the history of governmental abuse against all our basic rights from 1868 to 1873. Armed citizens openly carried firearms to the state capitol and removed the despot governor Davis in 1873. Let's not forget our history. We still have every reason to fight for every tiny bit of our full un-infringed right to keep and bear.

    Here's an interesting paper Stephen P. Halbrook wrote on the subject: The Right to Bear Arms in Texas: The Intent of the Framers of the Bills of Rights

  8. #23
    Ex Member Array JOHNSMITH's Avatar
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    From what I understand, the open carry org is unfortunately belittling SCCC to achieve their own gains at the expense of the campus carry bill. This is the reason for the divide; it is unfortunate as it would have been better for the Open Carry org to work with SCCC to achieve both ends.

    Now there's a much increased risk of both bills failing.

  9. #24
    Ex Member Array JOHNSMITH's Avatar
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    Here's SCCC's side of the story.

    As most of you can guess, the full text of Mike’s comments was not quoted in the article. Mike was simply trying to differentiate between SCCC and OpenCarry.org, and I’m sure he now understands as well as anyone that it was probably a mistake to say anything to a reporter that the reporter could selectively use to shape the story in a manner that reflects negatively on SCCC.

    But, at the same time, Mike is right that OpenCarry.org is using very poor judgment in the way they promote their open carry legislation in Texas. And it doesn't help that they accuse everyone who points this out of being pawns of the NRA/TSRA, both of whom OpenCarry.org claims are just jealous that open carry wasn't their idea.

    Rather than working to educate legislators, as SCCC does, OpenCarry.org is attempting to use their petition's 50,000+ signatures (which, incidentally, equate to less than 1% of Texas gun owners, only about 1/6 the number of Texas CHL holders, and about 0.2% of all Texas voters) to bully legislators into supporting open carry. They're telling Texas Legislators that they'll vote them out of office if they don't back this legislation. Texas Legislators, from both sides of the aisle, who've vehemently supported gun rights for decades are now being told by this Johnny-come-lately organization that they're going to lose their seats if they don't throw their support behind an issue than none of them had even heard about until about four months ago. Unlike the issue of concealed carry on Texas college campuses, there have been no legislative studies into the issue of open carry in Texas, and there have been no reports issued by any of the major gun rights organizations. Essentially, these ardent gun rights supporters in the Texas Legislature are being told to either take a blind leap of faith or start packing their desks.

    OpenCarry.org is also attempting to use its bully tactics on the Texas State Rifle Association (TSRA) and the NRA, the two organizations that have done more for Texas gun rights than any other group. Ignoring the fact that the TSRA and NRA plan their Texas legislative agendas two years in advance and make a point not to get involved in issues they haven’t thoroughly researched, OpenCarry.org is asking its members to withhold support from the TSRA and NRA unless both organizations agree to include open carry as a last-minute addition to their already full legislative agendas.

    Also, OpenCarry.org refuses to acknowledge and/or make accommodations for the potential impact of their legislation on both existing gun laws and on other pending gun rights legislation. The way their proposed legislation is written, it opens up all of Texas’s current safe guards for gun owners and concealed handgun license holders to potential amendment. Because the scope of their proposed legislation is so broad (much broader than it has to be), anti-gun legislators will have the opportunity to try to tack on amendments that will adversely affect right-to-carry in Texas.

    OpenCarry.org pays no heed to the concerns of many gun rights advocates who believe that the proposed open carry legislation may adversely affect the rights of concealed handgun license holders in Texas. Texans are not used to seeing citizens openly carrying handguns. Contrary to what movies and TV shows might have you believe, the sight of a cowboy toting a six-shooter down Main Street hasn’t been a common sight in Texas since the end of the Civil War. On the other hand, nobody in Texas gives much thought to concealed carry. As long as the guns stay out of sight and out of mind, nobody is bothered by them, and most business owners see no reason to post signs prohibiting concealed carry on their property. However, if--following a lengthy, well-publicized legislative battle over open carry--shop owners start noticing people walking into their shops toting openly carried handguns, and--more significantly--if shop owners start getting complaints from customers who aren’t comfortable shopping around people toting openly carried handguns, we’re likely to see a lot more Texas businesses posted as “gun free” zones. Contrary to what the OpenCarry.org people may think their 50,000+ signatures proves, I feel pretty confident in saying that most Texas right-to-carry supporters are more interested in WHERE they can carry than in HOW they can carry.

    The OpenCarry.org supporters who suggest simply boycotting any establishment that prohibits right-to-carry have clearly not spent enough time in states where more than 1% of businesses are posted “gun free.” Otherwise, they might realize how frustrating life can be for right-to-carry advocates when the only places they can carry are city streets, state and municipal buildings, and public parks.

    When you consider that most business owners are likely a lot more concerned with the 23,275,000 Texans who haven’t signed the OpenCarry.org petition than with the 50,000 who have (and FYI, I’m pretty sure that a lot of those signatures aren’t actually from Texans), a boycott is likely to have little if any effect on the actions of business owners. And anyone who thinks that the Texas Legislature will pass an open carry bill without amending section 30.06 of the Texas Penal Code to ensure that private property owners can prohibit open carry on their property clearly doesn’t know much about Texas politics.

    Also, OpenCarry.org refuses to make any concession or accommodation for the way their proposed legislation may affect proposed concealed carry on campus legislation. As long as they’re pushing for statewide open carry, without exception, it’s hard for us to argue that guns on campus won’t be a distraction because the guns will be “out of sight and out of mind.” And as long as OpenCarry.org is pushing for unlicensed open carry, without exception, it’s hard for us to assuage the concerns of skeptics by arguing that only trained, licensed adults, age twenty-one and above, will be allowed to carry guns on campus. We’ve asked the leaders of OpenCarry.org to issue a statement indicating that they are not seeking to legalize open carry on college campuses; however, they refuse to make any concessions.

    Their insistence on viewing “compromise” as a dirty word essentially leaves us in the unwelcome position of attempting to construct a bill that no only permits concealed carry on campus but also prohibits open carry on campus. It’s the only way we can prevent their bill from sabotaging ours.

    Finally, there is the fact that the media keeps attempting to lump the concealed carry on campus movement and the open carry movement into the same category. Given the powerful enemies OpenCarry.org is making, through their ill-advised strong-arm tactics, and the radical public image OpenCarry.org is creating, through their refusal to compromise, SCCC’s Texas leaders are now forced waste valuable time disassociating SCCC from OpenCarry.org. And if we aren’t careful in doing so, we run the risk of alienating supporters (as Mike demonstrated).

    So, in summation, Mike wasn’t attempting to take a stance on open carry; he was attempting to say that SCCC doesn’t appreciate the way OpenCarry.org is pursuing the legalization of open carry in Texas and that, as long as they continue with their current tactics, we’re all going to be much better off if their bill dies in committee.

    W. Scott Lewis
    Advisor / Former National Media Coordinator
    Students for Concealed Carry on Campus
    Students for Concealed Carry on Campus - ConcealedCampus.com

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