USC 18 922 states that concealed permit holders are EXEMPT from Federal laws as far as carrying at a school go. The problem is what laws the state have in effect. Bottom left hand side.
And when I go to church, I carry.
If it's legal, do it.
I'm a preacher's kid and I definitely would carry to church .. seen some really weird stuff including violent fist fights among grown ups.
Here in Utah it is at the discretion of the place of worship on whether or not they are allowed. Unfortunately for my, my place of worship does not allow it. Bummer.
While I see where you are coming from, a church's mission is not, by definition, education. It is life change. Education, along with worship and mission and other things is ultimately subservient to helping lives to be transformed. Now, do I agree with you that someone could unilaterally decide otherwise, and choose to arrest and prosecute? I do.Quote:
But as to the legal language question, I'm thinking "Sunday school" is comprised within the definitions of both "private" and "parochial" schools. An attempt to make a distinction on the basis of the content of instruction isn't going to go anywhere. It doesn't specify "welding shops" or "marine science laboratories", either, but if people are being instructed in those places as a significant division of their operations, then I'd say they're "schools". On the other hand, new employee training in the fresh vegetables section of the Safeway doesn't make the Safeway into a "school". If the mission is instruction, it's a school; if the schooling is incidental to the mission, it's not a school. That's how I see it. If the folks where you live aren't interested, all the better for you.
Again, agreed. There are some poorly written laws which create much havoc and pain.Quote:
I still think the statute ought to be changed. Perhaps to clarify the definition to comply with your perception of it.
A lot of people, and attorneys along with the actual humans, do things on the basis of a sort of "what's really going on here" kind of analysis. The flip side of that is the assumption, "I don't care about no stinkin' rules". Most people will apply the "no harm no foul" rule, and there's not going to be any enforcement of any statute at all if no one in the church complains and you don't do anything silly with your gun. And if no one ever sees it or knows it's there unless and until the "bad guy" comes in to start shooting the parishioners, you'll never have a problem. On the other hand, if someone thinks you're carrying and goes to the sheriff's office to complain about what a dangerous person you are, it's theoretically possible that you could have to deal with the rules as (badly) written.
I'm just doing a "heads up", here. I, personally, am all in favor of your carrying in church; but I couldn't recommend that you do so, because I believe you could well be guilty of a felony for doing so. If you're willing to take the risk, more power to you. My main point is that badly written statutes like this one turn otherwise socially responsible, self-reliant, and law-abiding citizens into criminals.
I carry at Church. I am the youth /Children's pastor and feel that I have to protect them when they are under my care.
I know of no state that would define what takes place on Sunday morning in the Sunday School as providing "elementary or secondary education."Quote:
(26) The term "school" means a school which provides elementary or secondary education, as determined under State law.
Also I want to cite U.S. Code: 18 U.S.C. § 922 (q) (2)
Thus demonstrating that the church does not fall under the "school zone" section and even if it did the restriction does not apply if the individual has a license and possession in church is legal in the state in question.Quote:
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm-
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license
And just for fun. In United States v. Lopez, 514 U.S. 549 (1995) the Supreme Court concluded that Congress had exceeded its authority under the Commerce Clause by enacting the Gun Free School Zones Act of 1990, 18 U.S.C. § 922(q), which prohibited the possession of a firearm in a school zone.
I am not an attorney, I am a reference librarian and an FFL. Research is my job and having a good working knowledge of firearms laws is a necessity in my FFL work. ATF Publication 5300.4 Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide is never more than a step away.
cmon, as christians we've been persecuted for thousands of years... i think it only makes sense as a people to understand the significance of having a well armed congregation...
It's legal here in CO so yes, I carry in church and everywhere else it is legal to. The BG's don't announce their time, place, and intentions ahead of time so it's better to be ready.
Trust in God but carry an extra mag.
I sit on the fence on this one...
I attend a large Baptist church in a suburb of Memphis where our average worship attendance is around 1800 people. Due to threats and vehicle break-in's, we have several armed guards that patrol our parking lot. They also help with traffic after the service is over. We also have plain clothes security guards that patrol the inside of the building during our services.
My reservation for carrying in church is the number of people in the service as well as before and after as we mingle in common areas. If the worst case scenario happened and a BG walked in and started shooting up the place, it would be very difficult to take a shot in such a large crowd of people. I would also fear the plain clothes security guards responding to gunshots, see me with gun in hand, and shoot me.
Another thing I have considered is that four members of our congregation are local policemen, three of them are on the SWAT team (one is my son-in-law) and they do not carry in church. Maybe this has been as big an influence as anything.
He helps those who help themselves.
He watches over those who watch over the children.
And I'm sure those who are prepared to defend the extended family with everything they've got will be smiled upon.
At one time, the meek might have inherited the earth. But, now as then, many of the meek get led to slaughter. Many have learned that through painful experience. Changing times require changing tactics. And so it goes. So long as we retain our humanity and compassion while protecting the flock, we can hold our heads high.