Carry to church??? - Page 5

Carry to church???

This is a discussion on Carry to church??? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by PM Some where I read there is a statement in the law having to do with "possesion of a state licenses" or ...

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Thread: Carry to church???

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by PM View Post
    Some where I read there is a statement in the law having to do with "possesion of a state licenses" or something. There are those who say that the Concealed carry permit (whatever the state may choose to call it) meets that requirement of the Fed law.

    There is also a provision for those who live within a 100 feet of a school which allows them to keep firearms on their property and move them in and out of said property as long as they do not step on the school property.

    I would also go as far as saying if a LEO wanted to be a ???hole he or she could do so without worrying about if I carried in church/to a building with a [Sunday] School.
    Correct on all points.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    Nothing I say as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice. Legal questions should be presented to a competent attorney licensed to practice in the relevant state.


  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by concealed View Post
    My wife is in LE, and I have discussed this with many people related to LE. The consensus opinion is that "just carrying for protection" does not meet the intent. Of course they believe the language is vague just as you and I, but that is there initial take should they get a call concerning CC in church.
    The problem is that there has never been a Virginia Supreme Court decision that interpreted that language, that I could find. I would argue that the increase in unlawful acts of violence in churches recently gives a person a legitimate need to protect himself and other innocent persons from such threats, and this is more than a "good and sufficient" reason, it's a compelling reason. If I were making such an argument, though, I'd want to have the rector/minister/rabbi/pastor/guru on board with that, and willing to show up as a witness to say so to the jury.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    Nothing I say as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice. Legal questions should be presented to a competent attorney licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Array MilitaryPower's Avatar
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    USC 18 922 states that concealed permit holders are EXEMPT from Federal laws as far as carrying at a school go. The problem is what laws the state have in effect. Bottom left hand side.

    http://www.gunlaws.com/Gun_Free_School_Zones_Act.pdf

    And when I go to church, I carry.
    Gun control can be blamed in part for allowing 9/11 to happen.
    "Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum" (Latin)- "If you want peace, prepare for war".

  4. #64
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    If it's legal, do it.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    The problem is that there has never been a Virginia Supreme Court decision that interpreted that language, that I could find. I would argue that the increase in unlawful acts of violence in churches recently gives a person a legitimate need to protect himself and other innocent persons from such threats, and this is more than a "good and sufficient" reason, it's a compelling reason. If I were making such an argument, though, I'd want to have the rector/minister/rabbi/pastor/guru on board with that, and willing to show up as a witness to say so to the jury.
    I agree. I just do not want to be the 1st Virginia Supreme Court Case!

  6. #66
    Member Array riverkeeper's Avatar
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    I'm a preacher's kid and I definitely would carry to church .. seen some really weird stuff including violent fist fights among grown ups.
    Old testament....Shooting to Live 1942
    http://www.gutterfighting.org/files/...ng_to_live.pdf
    Newer testament... Kill or Get Killed 1976/1987
    http://www.gutterfighting.org/files/...Get_Killed.pdf

  7. #67
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    Question As permitted

    Here in Utah it is at the discretion of the place of worship on whether or not they are allowed. Unfortunately for my, my place of worship does not allow it. Bummer.

    Quote Originally Posted by portable75 View Post
    Dis some googling and it appears its legal in MA. I did find out its illegal to carry at schools.
    If I'm not mistaken Utah is the only state that allows carrying at ALL public education facilities, K-12 and higher education. No?

  8. #68
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    But as to the legal language question, I'm thinking "Sunday school" is comprised within the definitions of both "private" and "parochial" schools. An attempt to make a distinction on the basis of the content of instruction isn't going to go anywhere. It doesn't specify "welding shops" or "marine science laboratories", either, but if people are being instructed in those places as a significant division of their operations, then I'd say they're "schools". On the other hand, new employee training in the fresh vegetables section of the Safeway doesn't make the Safeway into a "school". If the mission is instruction, it's a school; if the schooling is incidental to the mission, it's not a school. That's how I see it. If the folks where you live aren't interested, all the better for you.
    While I see where you are coming from, a church's mission is not, by definition, education. It is life change. Education, along with worship and mission and other things is ultimately subservient to helping lives to be transformed. Now, do I agree with you that someone could unilaterally decide otherwise, and choose to arrest and prosecute? I do.

    I still think the statute ought to be changed. Perhaps to clarify the definition to comply with your perception of it.

    A lot of people, and attorneys along with the actual humans, do things on the basis of a sort of "what's really going on here" kind of analysis. The flip side of that is the assumption, "I don't care about no stinkin' rules". Most people will apply the "no harm no foul" rule, and there's not going to be any enforcement of any statute at all if no one in the church complains and you don't do anything silly with your gun. And if no one ever sees it or knows it's there unless and until the "bad guy" comes in to start shooting the parishioners, you'll never have a problem. On the other hand, if someone thinks you're carrying and goes to the sheriff's office to complain about what a dangerous person you are, it's theoretically possible that you could have to deal with the rules as (badly) written.
    Again, agreed. There are some poorly written laws which create much havoc and pain.

    I'm just doing a "heads up", here. I, personally, am all in favor of your carrying in church; but I couldn't recommend that you do so, because I believe you could well be guilty of a felony for doing so. If you're willing to take the risk, more power to you. My main point is that badly written statutes like this one turn otherwise socially responsible, self-reliant, and law-abiding citizens into criminals.
    Thanks.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
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  9. #69
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    I carry at Church. I am the youth /Children's pastor and feel that I have to protect them when they are under my care.
    Mark

    "The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."

    -James Earl Jones

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    If the church has a day-care facility or private school during the week, or a sunday school, then it's a federal felony good for five years in a U.S. penitentiary to be in possession of a firearm within one thousand feet of the outer boundaries of the church property. It's the school-rule, and the definition of "school" is so broad, you pretty much can't have a weapon in any populated area without running afoul of that statute. And it defines "school" without any regard to whether school activities are actually being conducted, but only in regard to the scope of the real estate that such activities are conducted upon.

    I think it's nuts, myself, but here it is:

    =====

    U.S. Code: 18 U.S.C. 921
    ...(25) The term "school zone" means -
    (A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or
    (B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.

    U.S. Code: 18 U.S.C. 922
    (2)
    (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

    =====
    Not wanting to go too much into the law, but just for clarification due to later questions about this I thought few more citations of U.S. Code: 18 U.S.C. 921 and 922 could solve the church and Sunday School question.

    (26) The term "school" means a school which provides elementary or secondary education, as determined under State law.
    I know of no state that would define what takes place on Sunday morning in the Sunday School as providing "elementary or secondary education."

    Also I want to cite U.S. Code: 18 U.S.C. 922 (q) (2)
    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm-
    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license
    Thus demonstrating that the church does not fall under the "school zone" section and even if it did the restriction does not apply if the individual has a license and possession in church is legal in the state in question.

    And just for fun. In United States v. Lopez, 514 U.S. 549 (1995) the Supreme Court concluded that Congress had exceeded its authority under the Commerce Clause by enacting the Gun Free School Zones Act of 1990, 18 U.S.C. 922(q), which prohibited the possession of a firearm in a school zone.

    I am not an attorney, I am a reference librarian and an FFL. Research is my job and having a good working knowledge of firearms laws is a necessity in my FFL work. ATF Publication 5300.4 Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide is never more than a step away.
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    Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

  11. #71
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    cmon, as christians we've been persecuted for thousands of years... i think it only makes sense as a people to understand the significance of having a well armed congregation...

  12. #72
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    It's legal here in CO so yes, I carry in church and everywhere else it is legal to. The BG's don't announce their time, place, and intentions ahead of time so it's better to be ready.

  13. #73
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    Trust in God but carry an extra mag.

  14. #74
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    I sit on the fence on this one...

    I attend a large Baptist church in a suburb of Memphis where our average worship attendance is around 1800 people. Due to threats and vehicle break-in's, we have several armed guards that patrol our parking lot. They also help with traffic after the service is over. We also have plain clothes security guards that patrol the inside of the building during our services.

    My reservation for carrying in church is the number of people in the service as well as before and after as we mingle in common areas. If the worst case scenario happened and a BG walked in and started shooting up the place, it would be very difficult to take a shot in such a large crowd of people. I would also fear the plain clothes security guards responding to gunshots, see me with gun in hand, and shoot me.

    Another thing I have considered is that four members of our congregation are local policemen, three of them are on the SWAT team (one is my son-in-law) and they do not carry in church. Maybe this has been as big an influence as anything.

  15. #75
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    He helps those who help themselves.

    He watches over those who watch over the children.

    And I'm sure those who are prepared to defend the extended family with everything they've got will be smiled upon.

    At one time, the meek might have inherited the earth. But, now as then, many of the meek get led to slaughter. Many have learned that through painful experience. Changing times require changing tactics. And so it goes. So long as we retain our humanity and compassion while protecting the flock, we can hold our heads high.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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