Carry to church???

[Diddle]

I almost feel that CC in a church or house of worship is obligatory after reading some of Massad Ayoob's books and articles.

Reading some emails from, Tim at USCCA has also made me take a second look at CC in the similar situations.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[XDFender]

And just for fun. In United States v. Lopez, 514 U.S. 549 (1995) the Supreme Court concluded that Congress had exceeded its authority under the Commerce Clause by enacting the Gun Free School Zones Act of 1990, 18 U.S.C. § 922(q), which prohibited the possession of a firearm in a school zone.

I am not an attorney, I am a reference librarian and an FFL. Research is my job and having a good working knowledge of firearms laws is a necessity in my FFL work. ATF Publication 5300.4 Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide is never more than a step away.

Your point about the definition of "school" is dead on.

Unfortunately, your point about Lopez misses the point--Congress reenacted the statute in 1996 with amendments specifically limiting it to firearms that have moved or otherwise affected interstate commerce, thereby effectively circumventing Lopez.

Either way, the "church = school" argument is not real clear, b/c some churches do, in fact, provide elementary and secondary education during the week--so there is a point there.

Fortunately, I am licensed by KS and, therefore, carry every time I go to church. It seems that "sheepdog" is hardly more fitting a label than when in church...

[Dixie Mick]

I agree with all who have stated, "If it's lawful in your State, do so". God protects us all, of that I have no doubt. But I wish to never be the soul that tests God. If it be within my power to do something for myself and I then shirk that responsibility, turning it over to God to shoulder, then in my opinion, I am testing Him.

Also, I never want to be the fellow that tells the news cameras, "I have a license to carry and yet I did not today and this person/these people died". I wouldn't be able to live with myself.

YMMV. ;)

[ccw9mm]

I almost feel that CC in a church or house of worship is obligatory after reading some of Massad Ayoob's books and articles.

Ayoob and others recognize the average church property for what it is: a sheep pen. It's one of those places where unwitting/unconcerned people congregate alongside what might as well be a big sign that says ... Unarmed Group Here / No Defense Will Be Offered. To a wolf, think about how tasty that "dinner bell" is.

[falcon1]

Tennessee law allows it, so I do it.

[user]

Not wanting to go too much into the law, but just for clarification due to later questions about this I thought few more citations of U.S. Code: 18 U.S.C. § 921 and 922 could solve the church and Sunday School question.



I know of no state that would define what takes place on Sunday morning in the Sunday School as providing "elementary or secondary education."

Also I want to cite U.S. Code: 18 U.S.C. § 922 (q) (2)


Thus demonstrating that the church does not fall under the "school zone" section and even if it did the restriction does not apply if the individual has a license and possession in church is legal in the state in question.

And just for fun. In United States v. Lopez, 514 U.S. 549 (1995) the Supreme Court concluded that Congress had exceeded its authority under the Commerce Clause by enacting the Gun Free School Zones Act of 1990, 18 U.S.C. § 922(q), which prohibited the possession of a firearm in a school zone.

I am not an attorney, I am a reference librarian and an FFL. Research is my job and having a good working knowledge of firearms laws is a necessity in my FFL work. ATF Publication 5300.4 Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide is never more than a step away.

That's good work, I commend your diligence and I would certainly make the argument that the definition of "school" applies to limit the otherwise overly broad definition of "school zone". I fear that would be a losing argument, though, because the two terms are separately defined, and not by incorporation or reference.

Also, it was Lopez that caused Congress to amend the statute to include a bunch of crap about interstate commerce and all their findings about how school zones are in or affected by interstate commerce, and further limits application of the prohibition to guns that have passed in interstate commerce (i.e., if you made the gun yourself in the same state in which the school zone is located, the statute doesn't apply to your gun). So the statute that was under consideration in Lopez isn't the same one we're looking at now.

[user]

Ayoob and others recognize the average church property for what it is: a sheep pen. It's one of those places where unwitting/unconcerned people congregate alongside what might as well be a big sign that says ... Unarmed Group Here / No Defense Will Be Offered. To a wolf, think about how tasty that "dinner bell" is.

Reminds me of the Dairy Queen commercial in which the cute little girl gets the handsome lad to buy her a treat and says to her mom, "Jus' like shootin' fish in a barrel."

Or again, as Willy Sutton was reputed to have said when asked why he robbed banks, "'cause that's where they keep the money."

The pro-crime anti-security crowd has apparently designated schools and churches as proper places to entice would-be crowd shooters to have their way. These people are not "anti-gun", though that's how they characterize themselves, they're "pro-crime".

[Camjr]

Every Sunday, and every other function at the church.

I grew up in the same neighborhood where the Wedgewood Baptist Church shooting in Fort Worth occurred several years ago. It touched many families that I know. It's a no-brainer to carry in church for me.

[NCinstructor]

Whats your feelings on carry to church???

Taught half the church back in January, teaching the other half this Saturday. Also got another church on the hook for a class.

[bluedaisy]

My hubby and I always carry at church. Churches are targets, and it's only going to get worse, sad to say.

[cchager]

I have carried in church for the past year. I carry a Glock 27 on my ankle. It is legal here in Kentucky. Our church does not have any rules prohibiting the carry of weapons and our security team has recommended to our leadership to never prohibit the carry of weapons. The bad guys are always going to carry. Whenever you prohibit you only take the guns away from the good guys. It's better to have and never need than need and never have.

[PackerBackerToo]

I carry in every service and at every event.

[srfl]

If carrying swords and knives was ok for the Apostles....carrying a gun should be good for us while at church.

[dr_cmg]

Your point about the definition of "school" is dead on.

Unfortunately, your point about Lopez misses the point--Congress reenacted the statute in 1996 with amendments specifically limiting it to firearms that have moved or otherwise affected interstate commerce, thereby effectively circumventing Lopez.

Either way, the "church = school" argument is not real clear, b/c some churches do, in fact, provide elementary and secondary education during the week--so there is a point there.

Fortunately, I am licensed by KS and, therefore, carry every time I go to church. It seems that "sheepdog" is hardly more fitting a label than when in church...

I threw in the Lopez case just for fun. In fact the document that I used which referenced it was from the Justice Department and the opinion of the writer was that though the congress revised the wording the constitutionality of the new act was suspect and might not withstand a court test if one were ever made.

Yes, churches that run schools do present a problem, but I think that it could be argued that if school is not in session the location is not a school zone. That seems to be the way governments look at things normally. The traffic laws around schools change when school is in session. It might not fly, but could be a good argument if it was necessary.

[bmcgilvray]

http://www.fox16.com/news/local/stor...d4P3XXFzg.cspx

We've heard the bone chilling stories about gunmen going on rampages during church services. Now one Arkansas lawmaker thinks she has the answer to stopping them: allowing licensed gun-owners to carry concealed handguns in church. But some think that solution would make Sunday morning service a lot more dangerous. We headed to the Church at Rock Creek Sunday morning to see what churchgoers think.

Pastor Mark Evans told FOX16, "I don't feel like there's any reason, any value, any long-term value to allowing people, to open up the door to allowing people to bring weapons into churches."

Some churchgoers agree. "I think this is the house of the Lord and you shouldn't have to bring a concealed weapon to church," Denise Thacker told us.

Pastor Evans says House Bill 1237 which would change the current law to allow concealed weapons in church would open up a Pandora's box of problems. How do you sort out those who have gun permits and those who don't? And Evans says even if all the gun owners are obeying the law won't there be accidents?

"If you're allowed to carry a concealed a handgun into church it could be used for good," said Jeremy Postlethwait. The church member is a licensed gun owner and says if someone opens fire at church people like him should be able to protect everyone else.

That's why the bill's author created the legislation. "I think this is a positive move to address this problem before we have something in our state," Representative Beverly Pyle told us. The Cedarville republican from District 83 says concealed weapon holders have gone through background checks and training. And she says they're the kind of people that should be allowed to carry guns in church. Pyle says her bill has support from democrats and republicans.

Pastor Evans says his church has a security plan in place including uniformed officers. He plans to leave the gun toting to the professionals. "We don't think the congregation should be our security force," Evans said.

Representative Pyle says the House Judiciary Committee will review the bill Tuesday. If it moves through committee it will go before the full house and then the senate.
________________________________________


"I think this is the house of the Lord and you shouldn't have to bring a concealed weapon to church,"

This statement is absolutely true however evil doesn't stop at the door to the church house. We pray for the Lord's protection. We have to take some personal initiative in order to be the conduit He can use. One prays for potatoes at the end of a hoe handle is how the old saying goes.



"How do you sort out those who have gun permits and those who don't?"

Pastor Evans isn't paying attention. After all, it is CONCEALED carry. He needn't trouble himself...that is unless he wants to frisk church members at the door. Also, there won't be any accidents if the gun owners obey the law.



"Pastor Evans says his church has a security plan in place including uniformed officers. He plans to leave the gun toting to the professionals. "We don't think the congregation should be our security force."

The United States has a security plan in place including armed forces and law enforcement agencies. Government would prefer to leave the gun toting to the professionals. They don't think the citizenry should be it's own security force.


Good for Arkansas!