Electronic Training for Concealed Handgun? Virginia ACTION ALERT - Page 2

Electronic Training for Concealed Handgun? Virginia ACTION ALERT

This is a discussion on Electronic Training for Concealed Handgun? Virginia ACTION ALERT within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I agree with a previous poster that I have no complaints for a state to have lax regulations when it comes to obtaining a CCW. ...

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Thread: Electronic Training for Concealed Handgun? Virginia ACTION ALERT

  1. #16
    Member Array WVConcealed's Avatar
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    I agree with a previous poster that I have no complaints for a state to have lax regulations when it comes to obtaining a CCW. All I had to do was take the NRA Basic Pistol Class that included live fire.

    The more regulations we have, the more we lose our freedoms granted to us in the 2nd Amendment.

    Whatever happened to personal responsibility. If a person fails to adequately train and read the regulations and ends up shooting himself (Plaxico Burress) or someone else or has an accidental discharge in public, then that person needs to be held accountable for his actions.

    I do not believe that we should complain about how easy it is to obtain a CCW. The more restrictions we have, the more freedoms we lose and the less people we will have CC, which makes it easier to ban it outright as a "primitive" "antiquated" behavior.

    If any person is legally able to purchase and own a firearm, then he/she should be able to obtain a CCW very easily. I'm afraid even gun owners are giving up their freedoms all too easily for the sake of being PC or "safe".


  2. #17
    Member Array concealed's Avatar
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    2A Rights or Training?

    I guess I am stuck in the middle. I believe in everyones right to bear arms and protect themselves, however I do not want myself or family to be victim of an accidental shooting do to untrained holder. Holdinh them accountable after the fact is too late if someone has been killed.

    Now, I took the online test because it fit my schedule and I was familiar with guns. After the fact I also got trained one on one by certified instructor in use of my particular handgun. Of all the people I know that took this online test, all have gotten additional training or already were gun owners. This is personal responsibility that we cannot assume everyone else will have.

    I see both sides and just do not know which is best.
    Men look out for themselves; real men look out for others!

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WVConcealed View Post
    I agree with a previous poster that I have no complaints for a state to have lax regulations when it comes to obtaining a CCW. All I had to do was take the NRA Basic Pistol Class that included live fire.

    The more regulations we have, the more we lose our freedoms granted to us in the 2nd Amendment.

    Whatever happened to personal responsibility. If a person fails to adequately train and read the regulations and ends up shooting himself (Plaxico Burress) or someone else or has an accidental discharge in public, then that person needs to be held accountable for his actions.

    I do not believe that we should complain about how easy it is to obtain a CCW. The more restrictions we have, the more freedoms we lose and the less people we will have CC, which makes it easier to ban it outright as a "primitive" "antiquated" behavior.

    If any person is legally able to purchase and own a firearm, then he/she should be able to obtain a CCW very easily. I'm afraid even gun owners are giving up their freedoms all too easily for the sake of being PC or "safe".
    I agree with your sentiments whole-heartedly, but remember that our rights aren't granted to us by the Second Amendment or any other piece of paper. The second just spells out what the government CANNOT do. The minute they are granted by any man...they are no longer rights.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
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  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array Squawker's Avatar
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    I certainly appreciate your feelings, Packinnova, and when it comes to the ownership of firearms, I completely agree. But when it comes to concealed carry, I believe in "Shall Issue", and appropriate training. And appropriate training includes gun handling hands on, preferably with live fire and qualification. Here in Nevada, they take it to the extreme, requiring qualification with each weapon that we want to carry (qualification with any revolver covers all revolvers, but each pistol requires individual qualification). My CCW has 5 different weapons listed, and each time I buy a pistol, I have to qualify with it and have it on my permit before I can carry it concealed. I do believe that's overkill, but I haven't got a big problem with it.

  5. #20
    Member Array alteredspeed's Avatar
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    In VA it is not required to even fire a gun period. You must take a class but most don,t shoot. Personally I think you should not only have to shoot but you should have to qualify with your gun. You are no good to society or your self if you don't know how to chamber,aim and shoot. Some people will say its our right,yes but is CCW part of the Constitution, that is a good argument. I would not see why anyone would be aginst it. If you are in a situation where your relying on some one to save you dont you want them to be a good shot.

  6. #21
    Senior Member Array bklynboy's Avatar
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    More food for thought. In a timely coincidence, I recently bought Mas Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme" and started reading it last week. In the Introduction he notes:

    "It is my personal opinion that every applicant for a carry permit should pass a written examination on self-defense and lethal force laws, and a close range qualification run over a combat pistol shooting course....Some gun owners may consider this a suggested abrogation of their Constitutional rights. On the contrary, it is the failure to institute such controls that may eventually terminate the privilege of carrying concealed weapons for personal safety."

    Ayoob, is hardly the last word on the subject ,but he is both a fierce advocate of 2A rights and a respected firearms trainer. "In the Gravest Extreme" was written 28 years ago; I wonder if he has changed his mind on this point? Does anyone know?

  7. #22
    Member Array Dihappy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova View Post
    I think you've missed a basic concept of freedom...called self preservation. Would it be nice if everyone went out and got effective training? ABSOLUTELY! Should it be required? A RESOUNDING HELL NO!

    Why? What about those one in a million cases? Those single mother or old widows that realize that they're in trouble, get themselves a firearm to carry, sign up for a class, but the threat is real right now and they don't have weeks or more to wait for the class to complete(signup/waiting time+actual class time).

    Are you going to tell them..."Sorry you can't defend yourself and/or your child"?
    +1

    Should anyone have to qualify in order to be able to defend themselves?

    Our founding fathers never had that in mind.
    "...trying to get a long gun into play while someone is all over you like a monkey eating a cupcake is not very conducive to good survival techniques." ~Bark'n

  8. #23
    Member Array USAF Glocker's Avatar
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    Have any of you had problems with this? I.E. presenting the certificate printed out, but having it rejected?

  9. #24
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    What's the problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCHornet View Post
    It was easier than getting a hunting license in CA.
    Wouldn't expect it to be otherwise? CA, NY, MD, DC, etc

    Here in Virginia, if you can own/buy a gun, you can OC. If you can own/buy a gun you can CC in your own home, business, or other property.

    So, "proper handling" is not primarily controlled via "prior restraint." The ramifications of mishandling are prosecuted post facto if and when there is a need/incident. IMHO, the 2nd amendment should be handled the same as the 1st. You don't require someone to prove efficiency at typing, spelling, grammar, etc before they can buy a typewriter, or now a computer. You don't tape folks mouths, to keep them from yelling fire, when they go into a theater.

    The CHP is primarily about background check and knowing Virginia Law as it applies to CC.

    Range time is an option in the CHP course taught at my local Community College -- albeit the classroom has a fair amount of discussion of proper handling.

    Now does that mean that I don't think one should get hands on firearm training? No way! I think you would be stupid not to get training w/ range time. I would feel the same way about any dangerous tool. I know lots of people who have never taken a chainsaw safety class, yet operate one. I also know people with missing body parts because of it. In fact, I learned chainsawing and gun handling from my father -- and I learned some bad habits in chainsawing. When I did take a chainsaw safety (a few hundred trees later), I was amassed at what I didn't know and how lucky I had been over the years. The old man did a much better job on gun handling and the USMC had completed it, before I ever took a NRA course. However, I still like to do a refresher from time to time.

    IMHO, it is not the governments' job to protect everyone from being stupid -- especially as an excuse to restrict a right. A privilege, such as driving on a public road, OK. (But note: you can drive all they want to on your own property, w/o a license).

    How about the right to vote? How would a prior restraint training requirement on that right fly?
    Last edited by DaveH; February 24th, 2009 at 08:03 PM. Reason: missed an n't & a misplaced paragraph mark
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  10. #25
    Member Array Harvdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USAF Glocker View Post
    Have any of you had problems with this? I.E. presenting the certificate printed out, but having it rejected?
    No problems at all here. Cert printed fine and the CHP was approved.
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  11. #26
    Member Array concealed's Avatar
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    No problems at all. I had heard one judge in Suffolk had not accepted it at first without proof of firing with instructor. Local gun shop sued, and the judge was forced to accept the certificate without any other qualifications.
    Men look out for themselves; real men look out for others!

  12. #27
    Member Array user's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concealed View Post
    ...
    In order to get a concealed handgun permit, Virginia residents are currently required to complete a hunting course or a firearms training and safety course with a National Rifle Association or criminal justice-trained instructor. Exceptions to this rule include people who can prove they are currently in the military, were honorably discharged from the military, participate in competitive rifle events, have formal training with government agencies or previously had a concealed handgun permit. ...
    That's actually a false statement, and the one word that makes it false is "and", which I've made bold and underlined in the quote. The statute uses the word, "or".

    And, although it is an accurate statement that one way to meet the requirement is by taking a course taught by an NRA certified instructor, there is no requirement that the course be an NRA approved course. Big difference. As an NRA instructor, I could (but I wouldn't), teach a half hour course over the telephone telling you about gun safety, and issue you a certificate you could use to get your permit. Perfectly legal as the law is written right now.

    I have no idea why Ken Cuccinelli's doing this, because it won't result in a change in the law, regardless of whether it passes or not.

    I researched this issue when someone handed me a card for "Online Gun Safety Training", advertised to take one hour by internet, for a fee of $39.99.

    I, myself, qualified using my Va. hunter education course certificate. The course had almost nothing to do with handguns, and nothing whatsoever to do with either firing them or carrying them in public.

    Here's another wrinkle - the folks in the clerk's office have no way to check to see whether the course that was taken was actually taught by an instructor qualified under the law.

    What I think is ridiculous is the amendment to the statute a few years back that changed the permit from a "concealed weapons permit" to a "concealed handgun permit"; if you have the permit, you can carry a big, bad gun under your jacket, but you'd better not have a slingshot or a box cutter in your pocket.
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  13. #28
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    I see both sides... But..............When people that are for our cause are being interviewed, they always stress " These are law abiding citizens that have passed the test and passed the training in operating a handgun". this is to comfort the sheep. So if this point is going to be stressed, maybe more required training would go for our cause, rather its "constitutional" or not. We're loosing rights just by having to get a permit in the first place.
    There are plenty of people with permits that can give us a bad name and go against our cause because they dont take it seriously. We are required to jump through the hoops anyway to get a permit, why not make the course with more hands on gun training? There are hidden videos in ccw classes that are shown on the news showing "lack of training" as they put it, scaring the public. Their motive is to take away our permits. More training would only be one less thing they could use against us.
    When I hear of an accidental shooting or someone doing something stupid with a gun, my first thought is, "well the antis are going to take that and run with it".
    In a "real world" , we shouldnt have to take training or pay anyone for a permit. But we're hanging by a thread.
    Prepare for the worst and hope it never happens

  14. #29
    Member Array concealed's Avatar
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    USER is correct. The word "or" is in the statute. I copied this from the internet without reading. In most cases the judge and chief law enforcement officer the one that looks hardest at these permits. I myself live in a town so I had to have the judge, Sheriff, and Chief of Police review my request. Any one of them could reject it. Fortunately all are reasonable. I do know of someone who was rejected because the certificate was not dated and signature smudged. At least it was being looked at.

    I myself am beginning to see the disadvantage of On Line courses. Though I used it and received training after the permit was issued, not all will do this. However, the BOR guarantees a RBA and it does not have a caveat of "with appropriate training". Very tricky area.
    Men look out for themselves; real men look out for others!

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