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Electronic Training for Concealed Handgun? Virginia ACTION ALERT

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#1 ·
By Julia O'Donoghue
Wednesday, February 04, 2009

The Virginia Senate Committee for Courts of Justice moved forward a bill that allows an applicant for a concealed handgun permit to demonstrate competency with the weapon by taking an online, video or electronic course as long as it is taught by a state-certified or National Rifle Association-certified firearms instructor.

In order to get a concealed handgun permit, Virginia residents are currently required to complete a hunting course or a firearms training and safety course with a National Rifle Association or criminal justice-trained instructor. Exceptions to this rule include people who can prove they are currently in the military, were honorably discharged from the military, participate in competitive rifle events, have formal training with government agencies or previously had a concealed handgun permit.

The bill, introduced by Fairfax County Sen. Ken Cuccinelli (R-37), received bipartisan support among committee members.

Another Fairfax County Senator, Democratic Majority Leader Dick Saslaw (D-35), and Democratic gubernatorial hopeful Sen. Creigh Deeds (D-25) both voted to support the bill.

Fairfax County senators Janet Howell (D-32) and Toddy Puller (D-36) voted against the bill.
 
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#4 ·
Believe it or not it already exists. The gun shop sponsoring the test sued the local judge for one jurisdiction who initially had reservations. The gun shop won and this class is all that is required. The video and test is about 1.5 hours. Go HERE to see the info. I know the same test also exists ifrom a gun shop in Richmond as well.

Like Paymeister, I too have a tinge of doubt about the issue. Does it do us more harm than good? I do not know, so what do others think?
:confused:
 
#10 ·
I think you've missed a basic concept of freedom...called self preservation. Would it be nice if everyone went out and got effective training? ABSOLUTELY! Should it be required? A RESOUNDING HELL NO!

Why? What about those one in a million cases? Those single mother or old widows that realize that they're in trouble, get themselves a firearm to carry, sign up for a class, but the threat is real right now and they don't have weeks or more to wait for the class to complete(signup/waiting time+actual class time).

Are you going to tell them..."Sorry you can't defend yourself and/or your child"?
 
#6 ·
I'm more comfortable knowing a permit holder has had the hands on training. Didn't seem to me like the requirements were all that difficult to knock out and they were appropriate to demonstrate a level of responsibilty and commitment to carrying.

Seems like something the anti's will be able to point at saying "look, we made it easier for you to get your stupid permits." And we'll have to deal with the fact that they made it easier for less dedicated people to get permits. May or may not lead to more people who maybe shouldn't have them...

I, of course, say all this not having seen the video, but by my gut reactions, I'm not in favor of this.
 
#7 ·
It really scared me how easy it was for me to get my CC permit in NC. It was easier than getting a hunting license in CA. At least now they have increased class time and are teaching gun safety as part of the course with a live fire qualification. We that carry, practice live fire, drawing etc are a extreme minority in the gun world. Most get their permit and either never carry or they carry and never practice. This should scare some of ya!! How many are toting a 45acp they have no idea how to control and fire accurately. I believe there should be one set of standards of permits in all states, I think this would make the reciprocy much easier, because then any permit should be valid in any shall issue or may issue state. I know this is dreaming but I am still all for it!!
 
#24 · (Edited)
What's the problem?

It was easier than getting a hunting license in CA.
Wouldn't expect it to be otherwise? CA, NY, MD, DC, etc :aargh4:

Here in Virginia, if you can own/buy a gun, you can OC. If you can own/buy a gun you can CC in your own home, business, or other property.

So, "proper handling" is not primarily controlled via "prior restraint." The ramifications of mishandling are prosecuted post facto if and when there is a need/incident. IMHO, the 2nd amendment should be handled the same as the 1st. You don't require someone to prove efficiency at typing, spelling, grammar, etc before they can buy a typewriter, or now a computer. You don't tape folks mouths, to keep them from yelling fire, when they go into a theater.

The CHP is primarily about background check and knowing Virginia Law as it applies to CC.

Range time is an option in the CHP course taught at my local Community College -- albeit the classroom has a fair amount of discussion of proper handling.

Now does that mean that I don't think one should get hands on firearm training? No way! I think you would be stupid not to get training w/ range time. I would feel the same way about any dangerous tool. I know lots of people who have never taken a chainsaw safety class, yet operate one. I also know people with missing body parts because of it. In fact, I learned chainsawing and gun handling from my father -- and I learned some bad habits in chainsawing. When I did take a chainsaw safety (a few hundred trees later), I was amassed at what I didn't know and how lucky I had been over the years. The old man did a much better job on gun handling and the USMC had completed it, before I ever took a NRA course. However, I still like to do a refresher from time to time.

IMHO, it is not the governments' job to protect everyone from being stupid -- especially as an excuse to restrict a right. A privilege, such as driving on a public road, OK. (But note: you can drive all they want to on your own property, w/o a license).

How about the right to vote? How would a prior restraint training requirement on that right fly? :rolleyes:
 
#8 ·
When I obtained my Virginia CC permit my only prior experience with firearms was with a 22 rifle at a Boy Scout camp decades before. To obtain my VA CC permit, all I had to do was take a three hour course with about two hours of classroom training and an hour on the range, during which I fired 50 rounds at a large silhouette target at 7 yards. I found this training to be wholly inadequate to the responsibility of carrying a handgun in a number of respects.

The instructor's view of the law was biased by a very pro 2A/pro conservative/pro gun culture point of view so that his 'guidelines' represented wishful thinking about what the results of using lethal force would be rather than a more cautious view about how the law operates in the real world. In fact, he made some outright errors in his legal conclusions. There was no written or oral test to see if we had absorbed the training. Fortunately, due to my legal background, I was able to recognize where he was being overly optimistic.

When it came to the shooting part of the course, I was not required to demonstrate any level of accuracy or to draw the weapon, present it and fire under any time limits. I was simply required to fire 20 rounds at the large silhouette target after which the instructor pronounced that I passed -based on unstated criteria- and I was given my certificate.

Although the certificate was sufficient for me to obtain my CC permit in Virginia (which I applied for the week I got the certificate), I knew I was not prepared to actually carry so I took additional training and started slowly. It took me six months of regular shooting before I began to carry and even then I did not carry with a chambered round for a while longer.

Based on my experience, I believe that an online course taught by someone who actually knows the law and how it works would be an improvement over the live training that I received. It would also be an improvement if the course included an exam that the applicant was required to pass. (BTW, I was required to pass a written safety test before being able to use the range at NRA headquarters, so it appears that being able to demonstrate competence is not not alien to even a very pro gun point of view).

Finally, I also believe that a live fire exam should be mandatory in Virgina as it is in some other jurisdictions. Limiting the right to conceal carry to those who can demonstrate that they have a minimal capability to draw and shoot accurately would make it more deadly for the bad guys and safer for the good guys.
 
#9 ·
...
Finally, I also believe that a live fire exam should be mandatory in Virgina as it is in some other jurisdictions. Limiting the right to conceal carry to those who can demonstrate that they have a minimal capability to draw and shoot accurately would make it more deadly for the bad guys and safer for the good guys.
I very strongly agree. I was approached by a gunshop owner who told me he'd been solicited by a guy handing out cards offering an online course, a one-hour online forty dollar course. The gunshop owner figured the course must be illegal, so I looked it up. The statute says that the course used to qualify for the CHP has to be about either safety or training:

Virginia Code § 18.2-308
"Completing any firearms safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by a law-enforcement agency, junior college, college, or private or public institution or organization or firearms training school utilizing instructors certified by the National Rifle Association or the Department of Criminal Justice Services;"
Thus if the course is only about safety, and no actual hands-on experience is required, in my mind, there hasn't been adequate instruction. I'd be willing to have the experience certified some other way, e.g., police or military training, etc., or even a written statement by the applicant such as "I was raised on a farm and fed the family myself from the age of four by shooting squirrels and rabbits.."

Here's another thing - the instructors have to be certified, but they don't have to be teaching the courses they're certified to teach.
 
#12 ·
When Va first passed the CHP l shall issue statute, live fire training was required by some localities. It did not however require one to fire the weapon they were planning on carrying, and proficiency wasn't required either. It was more about demonstrating safe gun handling. I guess it was decided that safety could be demonstrated by handling unloaded guns provided by the instructors, because the state did away with any live fire requirements. Personally, I would rather have had a chance to shoot during my course.
 
#15 ·
No way, but my boys have the Nerf shooting arcade on Wii and maybe I can get a CCW for Virginia to! :)

I'm no expert by any stretch, but I cannot see how simulation could ever be a substitute for live hands on training. I can see the potential for some additional training perhaps, but there's just no substitute for actually going through the motions - IMHO.
 
#16 ·
I agree with a previous poster that I have no complaints for a state to have lax regulations when it comes to obtaining a CCW. All I had to do was take the NRA Basic Pistol Class that included live fire.

The more regulations we have, the more we lose our freedoms granted to us in the 2nd Amendment.

Whatever happened to personal responsibility. If a person fails to adequately train and read the regulations and ends up shooting himself (Plaxico Burress) or someone else or has an accidental discharge in public, then that person needs to be held accountable for his actions.

I do not believe that we should complain about how easy it is to obtain a CCW. The more restrictions we have, the more freedoms we lose and the less people we will have CC, which makes it easier to ban it outright as a "primitive" "antiquated" behavior.

If any person is legally able to purchase and own a firearm, then he/she should be able to obtain a CCW very easily. I'm afraid even gun owners are giving up their freedoms all too easily for the sake of being PC or "safe".
 
#18 ·
I agree with a previous poster that I have no complaints for a state to have lax regulations when it comes to obtaining a CCW. All I had to do was take the NRA Basic Pistol Class that included live fire.

The more regulations we have, the more we lose our freedoms granted to us in the 2nd Amendment.

Whatever happened to personal responsibility. If a person fails to adequately train and read the regulations and ends up shooting himself (Plaxico Burress) or someone else or has an accidental discharge in public, then that person needs to be held accountable for his actions.

I do not believe that we should complain about how easy it is to obtain a CCW. The more restrictions we have, the more freedoms we lose and the less people we will have CC, which makes it easier to ban it outright as a "primitive" "antiquated" behavior.

If any person is legally able to purchase and own a firearm, then he/she should be able to obtain a CCW very easily. I'm afraid even gun owners are giving up their freedoms all too easily for the sake of being PC or "safe".
I agree with your sentiments whole-heartedly, but remember that our rights aren't granted to us by the Second Amendment or any other piece of paper. The second just spells out what the government CANNOT do. The minute they are granted by any man...they are no longer rights.
 
#17 ·
2A Rights or Training?

I guess I am stuck in the middle. I believe in everyones right to bear arms and protect themselves, however I do not want myself or family to be victim of an accidental shooting do to untrained holder. Holdinh them accountable after the fact is too late if someone has been killed.

Now, I took the online test because it fit my schedule and I was familiar with guns. After the fact I also got trained one on one by certified instructor in use of my particular handgun. Of all the people I know that took this online test, all have gotten additional training or already were gun owners. This is personal responsibility that we cannot assume everyone else will have.

I see both sides and just do not know which is best.
 
#19 ·
I certainly appreciate your feelings, Packinnova, and when it comes to the ownership of firearms, I completely agree. But when it comes to concealed carry, I believe in "Shall Issue", and appropriate training. And appropriate training includes gun handling hands on, preferably with live fire and qualification. Here in Nevada, they take it to the extreme, requiring qualification with each weapon that we want to carry (qualification with any revolver covers all revolvers, but each pistol requires individual qualification). My CCW has 5 different weapons listed, and each time I buy a pistol, I have to qualify with it and have it on my permit before I can carry it concealed. I do believe that's overkill, but I haven't got a big problem with it.
 
#20 ·
In VA it is not required to even fire a gun period. You must take a class but most don,t shoot. Personally I think you should not only have to shoot but you should have to qualify with your gun. You are no good to society or your self if you don't know how to chamber,aim and shoot. Some people will say its our right,yes but is CCW part of the Constitution, that is a good argument. I would not see why anyone would be aginst it. If you are in a situation where your relying on some one to save you dont you want them to be a good shot.
 
#21 ·
More food for thought. In a timely coincidence, I recently bought Mas Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme" and started reading it last week. In the Introduction he notes:

"It is my personal opinion that every applicant for a carry permit should pass a written examination on self-defense and lethal force laws, and a close range qualification run over a combat pistol shooting course....Some gun owners may consider this a suggested abrogation of their Constitutional rights. On the contrary, it is the failure to institute such controls that may eventually terminate the privilege of carrying concealed weapons for personal safety."​

Ayoob, is hardly the last word on the subject ,but he is both a fierce advocate of 2A rights and a respected firearms trainer. "In the Gravest Extreme" was written 28 years ago; I wonder if he has changed his mind on this point? Does anyone know?
 
#26 ·
No problems at all. I had heard one judge in Suffolk had not accepted it at first without proof of firing with instructor. Local gun shop sued, and the judge was forced to accept the certificate without any other qualifications.
 
#27 ·
...
In order to get a concealed handgun permit, Virginia residents are currently required to complete a hunting course or a firearms training and safety course with a National Rifle Association or criminal justice-trained instructor. Exceptions to this rule include people who can prove they are currently in the military, were honorably discharged from the military, participate in competitive rifle events, have formal training with government agencies or previously had a concealed handgun permit. ...
That's actually a false statement, and the one word that makes it false is "and", which I've made bold and underlined in the quote. The statute uses the word, "or".

And, although it is an accurate statement that one way to meet the requirement is by taking a course taught by an NRA certified instructor, there is no requirement that the course be an NRA approved course. Big difference. As an NRA instructor, I could (but I wouldn't), teach a half hour course over the telephone telling you about gun safety, and issue you a certificate you could use to get your permit. Perfectly legal as the law is written right now.

I have no idea why Ken Cuccinelli's doing this, because it won't result in a change in the law, regardless of whether it passes or not.

I researched this issue when someone handed me a card for "Online Gun Safety Training", advertised to take one hour by internet, for a fee of $39.99.

I, myself, qualified using my Va. hunter education course certificate. The course had almost nothing to do with handguns, and nothing whatsoever to do with either firing them or carrying them in public.

Here's another wrinkle - the folks in the clerk's office have no way to check to see whether the course that was taken was actually taught by an instructor qualified under the law.

What I think is ridiculous is the amendment to the statute a few years back that changed the permit from a "concealed weapons permit" to a "concealed handgun permit"; if you have the permit, you can carry a big, bad gun under your jacket, but you'd better not have a slingshot or a box cutter in your pocket.
 
#28 ·
I see both sides... But..............When people that are for our cause are being interviewed, they always stress " These are law abiding citizens that have passed the test and passed the training in operating a handgun". this is to comfort the sheep. So if this point is going to be stressed, maybe more required training would go for our cause, rather its "constitutional" or not. We're loosing rights just by having to get a permit in the first place.
There are plenty of people with permits that can give us a bad name and go against our cause because they dont take it seriously. We are required to jump through the hoops anyway to get a permit, why not make the course with more hands on gun training? There are hidden videos in ccw classes that are shown on the news showing "lack of training" as they put it, scaring the public. Their motive is to take away our permits. More training would only be one less thing they could use against us.
When I hear of an accidental shooting or someone doing something stupid with a gun, my first thought is, "well the antis are going to take that and run with it".
In a "real world" , we shouldnt have to take training or pay anyone for a permit. But we're hanging by a thread.
 
#29 ·
USER is correct. The word "or" is in the statute. I copied this from the internet without reading. In most cases the judge and chief law enforcement officer the one that looks hardest at these permits. I myself live in a town so I had to have the judge, Sheriff, and Chief of Police review my request. Any one of them could reject it. Fortunately all are reasonable. I do know of someone who was rejected because the certificate was not dated and signature smudged. At least it was being looked at.

I myself am beginning to see the disadvantage of On Line courses. Though I used it and received training after the permit was issued, not all will do this. However, the BOR guarantees a RBA and it does not have a caveat of "with appropriate training". Very tricky area.
 
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