Legal Concerns Re: Modifications - Page 2

Legal Concerns Re: Modifications

This is a discussion on Legal Concerns Re: Modifications within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; You can play it both ways I think. I'm getting a match Bar-Sto barrel fitted to my Sig. Souped up? Nope...I wanted the most accurate ...

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  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array C9H13NO3's Avatar
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    You can play it both ways I think. I'm getting a match Bar-Sto barrel fitted to my Sig. Souped up? Nope...I wanted the most accurate barrel I could get. Less chance of accidentally hitting an innocent bystander that way. The short trigger and grips etc don't modify the function, so I wouldn't see how they could play that against you. Night sights...again, I want to be able to hit an attacker, not an innocent bystander if I'm in the dark.
    -Ryan

    All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TN_Mike View Post
    I think a good, scummy trial lawyer can educate a jury real quick on the difference between the standard trigger that comes on a gun and a "Hair Trigger" that makes the gun more "deadly". I don't modify my carry guns in operation at all. I will put night sights on them or add a LaserMax to them to aid in aiming, but I don't mess with the operations.

    I do not disable any type of safety, I do not lighten triggers, I do not put plus one or two base plates on the magazines.

    Just my opinion, you do what you feel comfortable with.
    But the trigger pull does not make the gun more deadly!!! It may increase the chance of a ND, but only if the shooter is not following the rules of gun safety. If the trigger finger is off the trigger until it's deemed neccessary to shoot, then the only thing to decide is was the shooter correct that is was neccesary.
    Luckily in Michigan as long as you felt it was and your lawyer can make an honest argument that another person in the same situation would feel the same than you are OK.

  3. #18
    Member Array caddisflinger's Avatar
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    What the internals of a gun look like or how they have been modified (by a certified gunsmith) should be of no consequence to a jury. A justified shooting is a justfied shooting and it shouldn't matter if I had to use my XD, 1100 or my 94 Winchester. All of the triggers pulls and internals are different.

    Plus, how is a jury ever going to know? Are they going to take my firearm to the csi lab pull it down to springs and pins to determine if any aftermarket parts are in there? I seriously doubt it.

    I did a bunch of research on this because I was contemplating a trigger job on my EDC. The only case I found was a case in NY where a guy admitted to a ND, because the gun went off before he intended and killed the BG. His case was a train wreck because he was an idiot, not because he had a S&W with a 3 lb trigger pull. I'll see if I can dig it up.

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimberland View Post
    Did the authors cite ANY cases where this has happened?
    RE: Caselaw - http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...e-caselaw.html

    Harold Fish isn't in jail because on 10mm JHP; he is in the big house because he gave mutually contradictory statements to the police during his interrogation without an attorney.

    But then again, it's easier for the gun community to point to a 10mm, jump up and down like a chimpanzee on crystal meth and shout "10mm Bad!! 10mm Bad!!" than it is to deal with the aftermath of a shooting properly: REMAINING SILENT AND REQUESTING AN ATTORNEY.

  5. #20
    Member Array bigiceman's Avatar
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    If you don't tell them what you have done what will make them look? The chances of getting into a SD shooting are slim. The important part, as others have stated, is the justificatioin for the shoot. If what you do makes the gun function better for you that is the important part.
    But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...
    "Baa."
    LTC(RET) Dave Grossman

    Revolutionary War Veterans Association Shooter Qualification: Cook

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryM View Post

    The case of the man using the 10mm is not a good case to quote as his defense lawyer was evidently incompetent.
    You know this how?

    Was an ethics complaint filed?
    An appeal filed based on counsel's lack of competence?
    Perhaps the judge's comments on the record of the case?

    Maybe you are making your own judgements on this matter based upon your extensive experience in law?

    I'm interested in hearing how you came to this conclusion...I mean, you wouldn't just be making something up or repeating something you read on the internet without putting any thought behind it...

    Or would you?

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array JerryM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    You know this how?

    Was an ethics complaint filed?
    An appeal filed based on counsel's lack of competence?
    Perhaps the judge's comments on the record of the case?

    Maybe you are making your own judgements on this matter based upon your extensive experience in law?

    I'm interested in hearing how you came to this conclusion...I mean, you wouldn't just be making something up or repeating something you read on the internet without putting any thought behind it...

    Or would you?
    It is what I read on the internet as to why the FBI ditched the 10mm. (I really do not have direct access to that case, but maybe you were there.)Supposedly the prosecutor made the point that the 10mm was too destructive and that was the major reason the FBI discontinued its use. In fact too many agents could not handle the recoil. A good defense lawyer could have countered that argument by investigating the facts.
    He could also have gotten expert testimony that the 10mm is not much more, if any, deadly than the best handguns used by LE.

    Anyway that is my view. Accept or not, and it is of no interest to me either way.
    If you want to be afraid of what lawyers will do, then act accordingly. I am not, and am going to leave it at that.

    PS. Rudeness does not become you.

    Regards,
    Jerry

  8. #23
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    If this is the case that was shown on DateLine, and I believe it is, the interviews with the jurors after the trial indicated that two of the main things that they considered, implying more than anything else, was the 10mm caliber and the hollowpoint bullets. Should that have been the main issues? Of course not. My question is, why didn't the defense attorney address the caliber/bullet issue so it wouldn't be a deciding factor?

    Regarding the OP, I see no problems. Modifying internals is an exposure, but it doesn't seem to have the teeth that many imply. I know numerous professional trainers and gun experts that disagree that it will be deterimental to the outcome of a court case to change trigger pulls, etc. In fact, one prominent school I went to encouraged me to have trigger work done and if it ever became a problem in court, because I was an alumni, they would provide free expert witness to defend the trigger work.

    I now have a Ghost Tactical connector in my G17. It's a 5# pull and I love the way the trigger feels. I carry it every day without concern.
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    So you have no first hand information as to the case or the practice of law as it relates to criminal defense, do you?

    Things are a little more complicated when it comes to than you make them appear to be, and in perpetuating myths about how things are in the court system.

    It's real easy to blame the lawyer. It's real easy to blame the weapon.

    But when someone talks to the cops for hours on end without an attorney present after pulling the trigger on someone...I blame HIM.

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array McPatrickClan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    In fact, one prominent school I went to encouraged me to have trigger work done and if it ever became a problem in court, because I was an alumni, they would provide free expert witness to defend the trigger work.
    That's a good point to think on. Quite a few gunsmiths would probably be able to demonstrate an expert status on their craft and would be happy to testify to the safety and reliability of their work, should the need arise.

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryM View Post

    If you want to be afraid of what lawyers will do, then act accordingly. I am not, and am going to leave it at that.
    Their are only 4 lawyers I know of whom I am afraid.

    #1 is a USN reserve O-6 and a SEAL.
    #2 is a former Forward Air Combat Controler and military contractor.
    #3 is a former NSA spook with a "thing" for 1911's and suppressed weapons.
    #4 is known as "Crafty Dog" of the dog brothers.

    Other than those 4 guys, I'm not worried.

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryM View Post
    PS. Rudeness does not become you.
    It becomes me as well as ignorance does yourself.

  12. #27
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    OK Folks. Time to take a Chill Pill.
    Please be Respectful and Polite to fellow forum members or the thread will get closed.
    Disagree with class & character. It's great practice for real life.

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Personally, I see it as a non-issue.

    I have a springer precision trigger kit in each of my XD's. I'm much more accurate on follow-up shots thanks to the short reset and almost complete elimination of over travel. In my mind, this makes my gun safer to others, not more dangerous. I want to be able to stop the threat without errant shots. You can argue all you want about what it shows as far as intent, for each argument against there is a counter argument for. If you are truly concerned about what modifications to your gun signals to a jury, then I don't know how you keep your head from exploding when you consider what you carrying a gun signals to the jury.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  14. #29
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    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    So you have no first hand information as to the case or the practice of law as it relates to criminal defense, do you?

    Things are a little more complicated when it comes to than you make them appear to be, and in perpetuating myths about how things are in the court system.

    It's real easy to blame the lawyer. It's real easy to blame the weapon.

    But when someone talks to the cops for hours on end without an attorney present after pulling the trigger on someone...I blame HIM.
    So do you have first hand information to refute what the jurors themselves said on public television?

    The two things the jurors mentioned as deciding factors were caliber and hollowpoints. As I recall, conflicting statements with the police never came up?

    So do you have first hand information about this case? Did you see the Dateline documentary? While we all question the 'documentaries', it is hard to refute what interviewed jurors said on national TV.

    So do you have some first hand information?
    I'm too young to be this old!
    Getting old isn't good for you!

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