USMC student, lawfully carrying concealed is arrested and kicked of Western Oregon Un - Page 3

USMC student, lawfully carrying concealed is arrested and kicked of Western Oregon Un

This is a discussion on USMC student, lawfully carrying concealed is arrested and kicked of Western Oregon Un within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by nutz4utwo I am not sure to which contract you are referring. It must be some sort of "i agree to be a ...

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Thread: USMC student, lawfully carrying concealed is arrested and kicked of Western Oregon Un

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array rhinokrk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nutz4utwo View Post
    I am not sure to which contract you are referring. It must be some sort of "i agree to be a student and follow university policies...
    You got it.
    Get the U.N. out of the U.S.
    Get the U.S. out of the U.N.


  2. #32
    Distinguished Member Array SonofASniper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cliph View Post
    From what I read, there had been a complaint about a man trespassing on University property and the description bore some resemblance to Jeffery L. Maxwell, the Marine Vet. Campus cops found Mr. Maxwell studying in the Student Union. Instead of simply asking if he were a registered student there and asking to see his student ID, they asked if he had a weapon. Since the original suspected infraction was trespassing, this should have ended it. Instead, they asked first if he had a wepon and being a law abiding citizen, he answered "Yes".

    An irony is that Monmouth, OR where this occured, used to be where the Academy for a training law officers was sited. How is it that the Monmouth Police did not know the law? In a larger sense, why did they not immediately clear the building when they found that an armed gunman was there? How did they know this was not a cospiracy and that more armed gunmen or gunwomen were not present. If I were a student there or a parent of a student, I would consider a lawsuit for failure to protect. After all, it has happened before.

    The story was on KATU-TV and KVAL-TV last night and was fairly done. KATU did the interview so you can actually watch it and here Mr. Maxwell speak. If you go to their website, you can find the report, make a coment on it and/or paricipate in a poll about whether citizens with permits should be allowed to carry on campus. Last I looked, it was running way in favor of yes. Check it out. Maybe you'd like to vote in the poll.
    Yea, there has finnally been some more information coming out and making it a little clearer. However, I still suspect that someone up the line on the initiating end may have had some prior knowledge and was wanting to get this poor guy in trouble.

    As far as people thinking that the Monmouth Police should somehow know the law better than any other agency in Oregon simply because that was where the police academy originally was located.... well... Thats kind of like assuming our lawmakers in Washington D.C. know and understand the Constitution fully and correctly because that is where the original document is located.

    Obviously they have proved that they can be one of the most ignorant groups in the country.
    I will support gun control when you can guarantee all guns are removed from this planet. That includes military and law enforcement. When you can accomplish that, then I will be the last person to lay down my gun. Then I will carry the weapon that replaces the gun.

  3. #33
    Member Array larefugee's Avatar
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    This makes me sad that a Marine Corp veteran would be treated like a criminal when he broke no laws. I'll be making a donation and watching this case closely.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Array wjh2657's Avatar
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    I am sorry that a Veteran has been deprived of his right to bear arms wherever he desired to. But I wish you would knock off this "a Marine should be able to do whatever he wants" crap. It is the opposite: a Marine does what he is told. I am a retired (30 years active duty) Marine Master Gunnery Sergeant. I entered Tennessee Tech University as a student two days after I left the USMC. The University had rules, I was told those rules and informed up front that I would have to obey those rules if I wanted to stay at the University. For five years (I was a double major) I went "gunless", even in the Campus Apartment the wife, son and I lived in. Was I deeply offended that the University had "tromped all over" my rights? No, the same rule was in place on the Marine Bases I lived on for thirty years. I could not carry on base unless it was an issue firearm and I was on duty. That weapon had to go into the armory once I went off duty. If I was allowed to go home at night and return for duty, the weapon went into the armory before I went home and I had to check it out the next day. Why did I do it? Because it was the regulation and Marines obey regulations. The Second Amendment still probably over rode the Base Regs but,as a Marine, I followed the base Commander's wishes. Civilians can run loose and disregard everybody's attempts to administer their own areas- Marines can't and don't! The day you put on the uniform you lose all of your rights except to follow regs, it's just part of the life.

    Labeling this individual as a veteran is correct and appropriate but inferring he has some special right to over ride Campus Regs because he was a Marine is totally BS, and after 30 years service as a Marine, I have the right to say that. As a Marine he should have been following the campus regs or he should have gone to school somewhere else. If he had still been on active duty and had done this on a Marine Base, I probably would have sat in on his Court Martial!

    The issue about carry on campus is an individual citizen issue, leave the label Marine out of it. Again title of Veteran is appropriate, you can't take that away from him. He is still a Marine also, but inferring that is part of the issue is totally counter-productive.

    If you have over 30 years of service in the Marine Corps (Marines judge Marines) and disagree with me then say so. Only another career Marine would even begin to truly understand how much this offends my sense of discipline.
    Retired Marine, Retired School Teacher, Independent voter, Goldwater Conservative.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by nutz4utwo View Post
    I am not sure to which contract you are referring. It must be some sort of "i agree to be a student and follow university policies..." It is interesting to note that the University did not follow their own policy.
    In Virginia it is more of a tit for tat contract -- something like, "in exchange for "x" I will "y".

    The "x" is something like "being accepted as a student at...."

    And of course the "y" is something like "follow all university policies, regulations, procedures governing behavior on and off campus... compile with all aspects of the Honor Code....submitting to the Institution's Honor Court.... etc"

    What you end up with is a civil breach of contract -- not a criminal matter. So, the 5th etc do not apply.

    It is rather like the wall the police and other governmental agencies build between "administrative" actions and "criminal" actions.

    My rights to privacy, the 4th & 5th, etc did not apply to the pee in the bottle, the lie detector, the financial disclosure, the access to everything in my work area, my home, etc. That was all "administrative" not "criminal".

    The protection of the 4th's "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated...." did not apply because it was administrative.

    The 5th's "nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself...."did not apply because it was administrative.

    You can lose you job for smoking when it is against the rules of the company.

    You can be kicked out of college for dancing when it is against the rules of the college.

    Those are not a "criminal" cases.

    I suspect the charge of "possession of a firearm in a public building." was improper and rightly dismissed. However, a charge of "trespass" might have stood up.

    OTOH, just like a college kicking someone out for dancing when it is against the rules of that college, I suspect the School is OK -- unless public/political pressure can be brought to bear.
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  6. #36
    Distinguished Member Array Elk Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjh2657 View Post
    If you have over 30 years of service in the Marine Corps (Marines judge Marines) and disagree with me then say so. Only another career Marine would even begin to truly understand how much this offends my sense of discipline.
    You do not have to have 30 years to understand, I earned the title Marine just like you did. 30 years does not make you more Marine, I agree with what you say, just because the guy is a Marine does not give him any more rights than the next guy. Being a Marine has no bearing on the story, many times the press use the title to paint us in a bad way.

    Semper Fi Mac

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elk Hunter View Post
    You do not have to have 30 years to understand, I earned the title Marine just like you did. 30 years does not make you more Marine, I agree with what you say, just because the guy is a Marine does not give him any more rights than the next guy. Being a Marine has no bearing on the story, many times the press use the title to paint us in a bad way.

    Semper Fi Mac
    I agree... I was just sitting here thinking, "I don't think I have ever been looked down on by another Marine... until now."

    Also agree that the guy being a Marine shouldn't matter... but even the Master Gunns said that "as a Marine he should have been following campus regs." Can't get away from it... the title brings with it certain expectations...

  8. #38
    Senior Member Array wjh2657's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elk Hunter View Post
    You do not have to have 30 years to understand, I earned the title Marine just like you did. 30 years does not make you more Marine, I agree with what you say, just because the guy is a Marine does not give him any more rights than the next guy. Being a Marine has no bearing on the story, many times the press use the title to paint us in a bad way.

    Semper Fi Mac
    Got a little hot under the collar on that one. I should have just said any Marine could say something. I think I was just trying to emphasize my credentials as being somebody who really takes it serious, but then again any Marine would. Sorry, Mac.
    Retired Marine, Retired School Teacher, Independent voter, Goldwater Conservative.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    In Virginia it is more of a tit for tat contract -- something like, "in exchange for "x" I will "y".

    The "x" is something like "being accepted as a student at...."

    And of course the "y" is something like "follow all university policies, regulations, procedures governing behavior on and off campus... compile with all aspects of the Honor Code....submitting to the Institution's Honor Court.... etc"

    Just thought of another one.

    After active duty in the Corps, I went to VPI on the "good" GI bill. My wife and I lived off campus. She taught school, and took a grad degree at Radford College (the womens extension of VPI then; now RU), at night.

    We did the laundry at a Laundromat there in town. Now, my wife could not wear shorts, jeans, etc to the Laundromat -- because "Radford Ladies" wore dresses in town -- by the schools dress code requirement.

    She could have been kicked out of grad school for wearing jeans.

    It was the contract.

    However, things change.

    RU's dress code has changed.

    We need to work to get the anti-gun codes changed.
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  10. #40
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    If I am reading right the school is doing what many if not most colleges do. They are circumventing pre emption by claiming to be private NOT public property. At least that is what the University Of Washington uses to enforce their no gun policy despite state pre emption. Don't jump on me I am not saying I agree with the policy or the University's circumventing the law. I am saying based on what I am reading as distasteful and vile as it is the University is well within its legal rights and the student violated the lawful rules of the school. Pretty much the same rules that exist in most colleges in America.

    If the University is perceived as being private property by the courts than they are in the right legally. As private property they have the right to make whatever rules they see fit. Just the way you and I do in our homes or the same as malls, stores and other business do. How many of us work in gun free environments? As wjh2657 and Elk Hunter have already said he not only should have known better he did know better. He knowingly violated the University rules, maybe to confront an injustice. We'll see as this progresses. As the law stands now the University has every right to hold their kangaroo court , expel the student and prohibit him from trespassing on their property.

    That said I think the law is wrong. The rules are wrong and the court is wrong. To that end I will send a donation and hope that the courts recognize how asinine it is a for a institution supported with tax dollars to claim to be private property in order to deprive law abiding citizens of their inalienable rights as defined and protected in the constitution.
    Last edited by LongRider; February 14th, 2009 at 02:33 AM. Reason: correct grammer
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  11. #41
    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    The "x" is something like "being accepted as a student at...."

    And of course the "y" is something like "follow all university policies, regulations, procedures governing behavior on and off campus... compile with all aspects of the Honor Code....submitting to the Institution's Honor Court.... etc"

    ...What you end up with is a civil breach of contract --
    Yea, I follow. I also want to raise this question:

    From a civil/administrative perspective, it seems the student did violate the University Policy and was disciplined (the suspension). It also seems the University violated the policy as well (If a person with a permit is encountered, they may be informed, if appropriate, that campus rules prohibit firearms on campus and in our buildings. They may be cooperatively requested to not bring the firearm when visiting in the future)

    Now, if the student contractually agrees to follow polices, then it would naturally follow that the University has contractually agreed to enforce them. They have failed to do that and it has caused the student harm. This could be the basis for a civil lawsuit...

    follow this logic? Anything I am missing?

  12. #42
    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    If I am reading right the school is doing what many if not most colleges do. They are circumventing pre emption by claiming to be private NOT public property. At least that is what the University Of Washington uses to enforce their no gun policy despite state pre emption. Don't jump on me I am not saying I agree with the policy or the University's circumventing the law. I am saying based on what I am reading as distasteful and vile as it is the University is well within its legal rights and the student violated the lawful rules of the school. Pretty much the same rules that exist in most colleges in America....

    ...That said I think the law is wrong. The rules are wrong and the court is wrong. To that end I will send a donation and hope that the courts recognize how asinine it is a for a institution supported with tax dollars to claim to be private property in order to deprive law abiding citizens of their inalienable rights as defined and protected in the constitution.
    A very wise response.

  13. #43
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nutz4utwo View Post
    It also seems the University violated the policy as well (If a person with a permit is encountered, they may be informed, if appropriate, that campus rules prohibit firearms on campus and in our buildings. They may be cooperatively requested to not bring the firearm when visiting in the future)

    Now, if the student contractually agrees to follow polices, then it would naturally follow that the University has contractually agreed to enforce them. They have failed to do that and it has caused the student harm. This could be the basis for a civil lawsuit...

    follow this logic? Anything I am missing?
    No that seems to be the consensus and the basis for OFF's lawsuit. As you and others have noted the school violated the very same policy that they used to expel the student. The needless exposure of the student to mockery and ridicule during their kangaroo court, makes it apparent that the school has some real malice towards this student. Maybe because he served in a war they are opposed to?
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

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