Need advice. Faith and self defense.

This is a discussion on Need advice. Faith and self defense. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Disclaimer: I am not pushing any religous views, simply asking for advice. I hope not, but if this post needs to be deleted I understand. ...

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Thread: Need advice. Faith and self defense.

  1. #1
    Member Array cv7713's Avatar
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    Need advice. Faith and self defense.

    Disclaimer: I am not pushing any religous views, simply asking for advice. I hope not, but if this post needs to be deleted I understand.

    Ok, my wife will soon be staying at home with our newborn and has mentioned she might want to learn how to shoot because they will be alone during the day. Great!! I've discussed all the possible defense weapons and pros and cons of each. We will probably go for a mossy or a taurus judge...

    However, here's my question. She is very strong in her faith and wants to know what the bible says about taking the life of another. At first, she mentioned wanting something to simply wound the perp. I told her why that would be bad and that she wants to stop the threat immediately. She doesn't know how she feels about killing another human being and wonders what is God's word.

    She asked for references to scripture where this is discussed. I have shared the following articles:

    The Bible and self-defense

    What does the Bible say about self-defense?

    Command Briefs: Bible Affirms Our Right to Self-Defense

    and others....

    Is there anything else I can reference? Does anyone else have a similar experience and how you handled it? Any advice is appreciated.
    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    If you really need it, you will need it really fast. ALWAYS one in the chamber.
    Nuf said!

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Array bbqgrill's Avatar
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    My signature has a great example of the Bible in context of self defense.
    "To believe that social reforms can eradicate evil altogether is to forget that evil is a protean creature, forever assuming a new shape when deprived of an old one." - SAT

    Never argue with an idiot - they'll bring you down to their level then beat you with experience.

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    Distinguished Member Array Reborn's Avatar
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    This has been discussed here several times. Jesus allowed his disciples to be armed. Peter used it wrong when he hacked off the soldiers ear. Jesus even commanded that if you had to sell a garment sell it and buy a sword. Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    I will do whatever is necessary to protect me family.That is also taught in the Bible.
    Psalms 144:1
    Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight.
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    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cv7713 View Post
    Disclaimer: I am not pushing any religous views, simply asking for advice. I hope not, but if this post needs to be deleted I understand.

    Ok, my wife will soon be staying at home with our newborn and has mentioned she might want to learn how to shoot because they will be alone during the day. Great!! I've discussed all the possible defense weapons and pros and cons of each. We will probably go for a mossy or a taurus judge...

    However, here's my question. She is very strong in her faith and wants to know what the bible says about taking the life of another. At first, she mentioned wanting something to simply wound the perp. I told her why that would be bad and that she wants to stop the threat immediately. She doesn't know how she feels about killing another human being and wonders what is God's word.

    She asked for references to scripture where this is discussed. I have shared the following articles:

    The Bible and self-defense

    What does the Bible say about self-defense?

    Command Briefs: Bible Affirms Our Right to Self-Defense

    and others....

    Is there anything else I can reference? Does anyone else have a similar experience and how you handled it? Any advice is appreciated.
    cv,

    The references you have listed sum up the position of Scripture.

    The bottom line becomes, does God want you or your wife to be harmed, potentially leaving your child an orphan?

    I am a pastor. I want to be a peacemaker, as Jesus says. I will not allow some bad guy to jeopardize my ability to minister, serve, help, make a difference. That is true for my ministry to my congregation, as well as the responsibilities I have to my family.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

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    cv, My wife suffered the same dilemma when she first started thinking about getting her permit. Hers was compounded with the fact that she is a medical professional and felt it was her duty to heal, not take a life. After much discussion she finally realized she has a moral obligation to protect herself.

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    Member Array j.a.magnum's Avatar
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    My wife is pretty religious. But I can guarantee, if she feels that our children are in danger, she will not hestitate to react swiftly and without reservation. I believe that God has given us stewardship over our families. I'm sure that failing to keep them safe (when it is within our control) is sinful. Sometimes we are placed in a position where we have to make a choice for the greater good. That is my perspective.

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    Member Array buzzgum's Avatar
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    In addition to the other references to the Bible, The Torah (Exodus 22.2) teaches that, when necessary a householder may kill a burglar to save his own life.

    Gemara Sanhedrin (72A) says: "He who rises to kill you, you must kill first."

    Jews and guns | Samizdata.net

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    Senior Member Array HK Dan's Avatar
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    Check out Gabe Suarez' Christian Warrior site too.
    "What does Marcellus Wallace LOOK like?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by j.a.magnum View Post
    My wife is pretty religious. But I can guarantee, if she feels that our children are in danger, she will not hestitate to react swiftly and without reservation. I believe that God has given us stewardship over our families. I'm sure that failing to keep them safe (when it is within our control) is sinful. Sometimes we are placed in a position where we have to make a choice for the greater good. That is my perspective.

    Ditto

    Once at a get-together of both folk from Church and the HS were she taught, an anti tried to get Carla to support her in a "discussion" we were having about guns.

    Carla response was something along the lines "I shoot in a heart beat, if someone tried to hurt my kids." I added "And she is a better pistol shot than I am."

    Then a number of other teachers joined in on the pro side. The pastor supported self defense and protection of home and others.

    The anti and few of her friends left the party.
    Μολὼν λαβέ

    I'm just one root in a grassroots organization. No one should assume that I speak for the VCDL.

    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

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    As far as I know, most religious teachings *no comment on whether or not I agree* prohibit both suicide and self-harming. Therefore, to not defend in the face of mortal danger is a violation of prohibitions against suicide and desecration of one's body.

    This of course has to be balanced against the prohibitions against harming others.

    Our secular laws have actually worked out that balance. It is against the law to commit assault. It is against the law to use deadly force to commit murder.

    It is not against the law to use deadly force to save our own life.

    One might ask if the two lives at play in a deadly force incident are equally entitled to being saved. I think the answer is that saving a life in Jewish tradition is "saving the world." One need only ask, of the attacker and the victim, saving which life will better the world? If it is possible to answer --as might occur in an extremely unusual circumstance--that keeping alive the attacker would benefit society over the sacrifice of the victim, then perhaps a different choice would need to be made in that specific rare circumstance.

    E.g., a soldier (I know it is a different situation than home protection) might well be called upon to give up his life to preserve alive the life of a high value prisoner who has important intelligence which could save many lives. Just an example.

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    Senior Member Array rhinokrk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    As far as I know, most religious teachings *no comment on whether or not I agree* prohibit both suicide and self-harming. Therefore, to not defend in the face of mortal danger is a violation of prohibitions against suicide and desecration of one's body.

    This of course has to be balanced against the prohibitions against harming others.

    Our secular laws have actually worked out that balance. It is against the law to commit assault. It is against the law to use deadly force to commit murder.

    It is not against the law to use deadly force to save our own life.

    One might ask if the two lives at play in a deadly force incident are equally entitled to being saved. I think the answer is that saving a life in Jewish tradition is "saving the world." One need only ask, of the attacker and the victim, saving which life will better the world? If it is possible to answer --as might occur in an extremely unusual circumstance--that keeping alive the attacker would benefit society over the sacrifice of the victim, then perhaps a different choice would need to be made in that specific rare circumstance.
    Excellent post, Sir.

    I don't quite understand the many posts we see wherein people of faith have an issue protecting themselves, and more importantly the lives of those they love (IMO). Every religious person I've met (myself included) believe in good and evil with the need that good MUST defeat evil in ones own life, as well as in society in general.

    Self preservation seems like a no brainer to me.
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    Boy am I glad you posted this today, it's what I needed to hear. My wife is totally freaked out that I just took my CHL class and want to carry ( we are both devout Christians), but she hates.....HATES...guns. We are actually going to a counselor about it tomorrow, i'm curious to see what HE says, hopefully being male he will see my side of this dilemma. I don't expect her to be gung ho about it and want to carry herself (seeing as she is freaked out by guns I wouldn't want her to ever carry anyway)...But I just wish she would calm down and understand that I just want to protect us and our future children.

    Anyone else have this problem when you were getting your CHL, having a wife against it?? If anyone has any pointers PLEASE let me know. I've already suggested she go to the range with me and shoot something like a .22 but it was a big negative on that one

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    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaleNursePX4 View Post
    Boy am I glad you posted this today, it's what I needed to hear. My wife is totally freaked out that I just took my CHL class and want to carry ( we are both devout Christians), but she hates.....HATES...guns. We are actually going to a counselor about it tomorrow, i'm curious to see what HE says, hopefully being male he will see my side of this dilemma.

    But I just wish she would calm down and understand that I just want to protect us and our future children.
    MNPx4,

    Good luck on your counselor being pro-gun. That is not likely, given the stance of many orgs like the American Psychological Associaton, AMA, etc. It's not a given that he will be anti, but prepared.

    There could be multiple things going on here.

    1. A phobia. Is there a way to get to the irrational fear of an inanimate tool we call a 'gun?' Did something happen which created this fear? A counselor could indeed help in dealing with that fear.

    2. Is the issue that you didn't consult her/talk with her before you took the step of taking your CWL class? Communication may be the real issue and the reaction toward guns, at least in part, a symptom of not feeling listened to/respected.

    3. Does your getting a CWL push her buttons about how safe/unsafe she feels? Some people, confronted with the reality that the world is not as safe as we would like it to be, react very defensively.

    The bottom line, is, in my experience, there are rational fears and irrational fears. It is possible that the counselor will try to label YOURS as irrational since you feel the need to carry a gun. Be prepared for that, in case.
    Last edited by miklcolt45; February 13th, 2009 at 03:34 PM. Reason: spelling
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

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    Member Array cv7713's Avatar
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    Sincere thanks for the posts everyone...

    I will tell her the bible says: "he that hath no 12 gauge shotgun, let him sell his garment, and buy one..."
    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    If you really need it, you will need it really fast. ALWAYS one in the chamber.
    Nuf said!

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    VIP Member Array JAT40's Avatar
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    Good info on Corneredcat-- http://www.corneredcat.com/TOC.aspx my wife with the same type thoughts found it very helpful. Look at ethical questions.
    While people are saying "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, ... and they will not escape. 1Th 5:3

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