This is a discussion on Interesting statistic within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I was watching the History channel the other day, and they had a show on police shootings, with officers and "experts" offering their views, famous ...
February 5th, 2006 09:19 AM
I was watching the History channel the other day, and they had a show on police shootings, with officers and "experts" offering their views, famous cases and disasters, etc.
One fellow, a former LAPD asst chief, now a consultant I believe, said that 20 years ago the average number of rounds fired in a police shooting was 2.5, but today (the show was made in 2001 I think) it is 4.5, nearly double. He said this happened because of the switch from revolvers to high capacity semiauto pistols.
Later, however, they discussed the doctrine of shooting rounds until the target is stopped, not just shooting and then checking to see if the guy is hit. I took a training course from our county sheriff, and he said they advise their deputies to fire many rounds- once you shoot, you are in a deadly force encounter and the law doesn't care if you shoot him once or 15 times.
Which explanation is most important? Any ideas?
Six for sure...Uh, I mean Five. Five for sure..
February 5th, 2006 09:37 AM
Diffrent training doctrine and avalible ammo on the person I am sure contribute to Rnd count. If you are a PD and only carry 18 rnds, you might conserve ammo as oppsed to carrying 48 or so rnds.
Also the arament of criminals has changed some too. More autos and such than before. therefore the officers may need to lay down cover fire.
February 5th, 2006 09:43 AM
Also if i am not mistaken that round count is All rounds fired , not just rounds fired by the officers.. and we all know the fire dicipline shown by your average gangbanger LOL
February 5th, 2006 11:11 AM
When I first started we carried wheel-guns and where taught double-taps to center mass followed by head shots if needed due to body armor being worn by the bad guys. Now we are taught to fire until the bad guy is no longer a threat. During the fight round count is not an issue, but in court it will most certainly be a point brought up. We still strive for basic marksmenship in training, but I also believe that ammo capacity of autos has brought about a spray and pray mentality to some degree.
February 5th, 2006 12:50 PM
Bad Guys being hopped up on various drugs these days might also be a reason for more total rounds expended.
In addition BGs working on their Third Strike have absolutely nothing to lose by continuing to fight it out (after sustaining multiple hits) until they finally "give up the ghost" & croak.
Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ
February 5th, 2006 12:56 PM
VIP Member (Retired Staff)
I certainly believe semi's have led to a bit of ''spray-and-pray'' - but there again, the approach these days does have to be geared entirely to threat cessation. As QK mentions - a BG hyped on ''stuff'' of some sort can take a lot of stopping.
Some dept's appear to be somewhat desultory with their training and in those cases I expect officers will expend more shots than needed, simply due to less favorable shooting skills.
Probably a factor too - is that most BG's will have semi's too these days and so if there is incoming - there'll be a lot of it! Thus a need to rapidly answer in kind.
Chris - P95
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February 5th, 2006 02:16 PM
I think it is not so much that the training doctrine on shooting to stop has changed but think of all the drugs now more common in use today by criminals. Back in the day, drunks committed crimes. Now we have tweakers, trippers, coke heads, crack heads, and other upstanding individuals taking bullets by cops. If you think you need more than one shot to stop any sober assailant, think of how many you would need to stop a tweaker.
Two to three may be enough to stop a sober robber, but how about the robber who is on a two day drinking binge finished with a snort of heroin, a toke of crystal meth, and has nothing to lose? More shots to bring him down.
07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006
Probably the only home based FFL that doesn't do transfers.
February 5th, 2006 04:39 PM
I've often thought about the issue of cover fire in non military action.
Originally Posted by rocky
Do you know which departments have cover fire in their training doctrine?
February 5th, 2006 06:45 PM
Probably slim to none...its a liablilty issue for a dept. to just sling lead.
Do you know which departments have cover fire in their training doctrine?
Some of the higher end SWAT teams may practice it, but Id be willing to bet that the average rank and file guy dosent do it.
February 5th, 2006 06:57 PM
Heck I remember the state acadamy was even teaching "skipping" rounds under a vehicle back in 94. That was interesting to "practice" but made sence. I cant speak for all agencies but from my personal experience is that the basic officer is now tought skills that were restricted to SWAT. I wonder if there is a rookie thats not tought the Mozambique (Failure) Drill? Someone once asked my why its was called the Failure Drill and my response was, "Cause rednecks cant spell Mozambique".
"Respect all ... Fear none!!!
February 5th, 2006 07:27 PM
The failure drill is more of a dedicated triple; two center of mass and inmediately one to the head. No "assesment".
The Mozambique Drill was added to the modern mechnique of gunfighting by Jeff Cooper based on the experience of one of his students, Mike Rouseau, while on duty in Mozambique. Rouseau was later killed in action in the Rhodesian War.
The Mozambique Drill considers the deficiency of the pistol round of stopping an adversary. Statistics show that reactions in gunfights are extremely irregular -- one must be prepared for the worst. Many times it is the case of after absorbing the trauma of the first shots, the enemy will disregard further ballistic insult. It has been pointed out that simply "more shots" are not the answer. The Mozambique Drill instructs the shooter to place a double-tap in the center of mass, followed by a carefully aimed headshot.
You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
February 5th, 2006 07:35 PM
February 5th, 2006 07:58 PM
Originally Posted by chiefs-special-guy
How does one get shot by .5 rounds?
Interesting statistics though. Im curious if there is any correlation between how many shots fired and how many deaths as a result. Was LE bringing down just as many BG's with their 2.5 rounds 20 years ago as todays LE with their 4.5?
February 5th, 2006 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by fed_wif_a_sig
We still skip rounds from both handguns and shotguns during or annual quals as secondary training and not required training. It is very interesting to see what really happens when you experiment. In fact we even shoot at B-27 targets through auto glass and doors along with standard unobstructed B-27 targets from a moving patrol vehicle practicing officer down recovery. I have a real free wheeling master instructor that is sharp and believes in burning a bunch of rounds.
February 6th, 2006 12:02 AM
Originally Posted by RdRaceWannabe
you get shot by .5 rounds when it hits a knife axe or piece of glass on the way too the badguy or you
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